Mass (gamer) market appeal, and a poll of sorts

[Dillweed]

So this occured to me a few weeks ago. I was wondering others' opinions.

Ask the average "strategy game" player and he (lets be honest here) will tell you that he would prefer a game to be more realistic. Unfortunetly for most a real time game where you "build" infantry and they blast away at each other from a few feet until their hit point reach 0 (starcraft) is considered more realistic than a tactical wargame (CMBO). One simple reason "turns feel fake."

So now we have CMSF with:

1) Real time play

2) Good (or at least decent) graphics

3) A setting similar to the one they see on TV

I think CMSF has the potential to be a hit in the strategy gamer market. My question is this a good or a bad thing for the community?

Now obviously its a good thing for Battlefront. They make exellent game and I think they deserve to make a boatload of money.

Some 15 year old (no offense stoat) telling me to suck as he atgms my command styker doesn't seem to be to great. But I think to be honest its a price we have to pay for an expanded community. Wargamming I think is getting a little crusty, some young blood would do us all good. So here is the poll: Who here is under 30? 25?

[Peter Cairns]

Forty four and rising with a sixteen year old son, who loves Civ 111, Black and White, Starcraft and World of Warcraft, but hates CM,

I don't think he'll like CM:SF either, it's not the pace that gets him, it's the realism. Not being able to regenerate or create more units etc. In effect like most "kids" they don't like having to live with their mistakes, they'd rather start again or walk away.

How many young people these days play chess, a game where you think hard and have to learn to fail but effort rather than trial and error or speed and dexterity.

Peter.

[Cpl Steiner]

40 today - Happy Birthday to me, Happy Birthdays to me!

I don't see why you can't love both types of games. I enjoy CM but am also currently having a great deal of fun playing "Call of Duty 2". CM is like a board game such as Squad Leader but with the hassle of dice rolls and combat results tables taken out. COD2 on the other hand is like a sumptuous graphical feast - an oil painting in pixels.

[Dillweed]

I like both types as well. I'm just hoping that CMSF is a more mainstream sucess as it would bring about more intrest in real wargames.

[Bruce70]

Originally posted by Dillweed:

Ask the average "strategy game" player and he (lets be honest here) will tell you that he would prefer a game to be more realistic.

If your talking about RTS players, I really doubt that they would say that. (btw 35yo - will start working on my 10yo son soon )

[SgtMuhammed]

Interesting that on a poll looking for 25 to 30 year olds only us old farts have responded so far (37 btw).

I like some RTS games but I kind of got tired of being "out moused" by the computer. I think CM gives you about the best balance that can be achieved right now. Once they perfect subcommanders that can follow my orders maybe I'll change my mind.

[Ardem]

31 so close to you mark your looking for.

I don't think it is so much an age thing as it is a particular type of person, people that play unrealstic games don't like to think hard or have the patience too.

Quite frankly if you get people that tell you suck and carry on like that in a game then it just be a very sad day for this community. I play a lot of FPS as well and I just wish a lot of people (mainly kids) would get some decency and sportmanship about them.

[M1A1TC]

Well, I am 27 with about 8 years of US Army service.Been playing CM games since the beginning, and will continue to do so

[Homo ferricus]

uh, i'm 16, didn't realize how many of you guys were in their 30s/40s.

[Dillweed]

I'm 20, in case that wasn't clear.

[hellfish]

27

[SgtMuhammed]

Originally posted by Iron_man:

uh, i'm 16, didn't realize how many of you guys were in their 30s/40s.

Why do you think we are so cranky all the time. Not enough, sleep, sex, or money. And this game and forum don't help any of those.

[juan_gigante]

One thing that might hurt CM:SF sales is if they are only through the website. Let's face it - for Joe Average, the local Best Buy is a lot more accesible that the site, and in stores you pick up a lot more impulse sales. "Oh, I remember seeing a review of that game. They said it was good. I guess I'll get it." would likely happen more than somebody randomly visiting the site on a whim and deciding to make a purchase. Anyways, I hope for BFC's sake they get some kind of distribution deal, preferably a better one than with CDV.

[Homo ferricus]

wow, i cant believe i never followed the clues, i figured the not enough sex part was because of the game though, but... wow.

[MikeyD]

I wonder if BFC's planning something like a proper ad campaign when the game comes out, if only to pick up a little name recognition. They might be able to do an end-run around the usual Beevis & Butthead gamer market if they "brand" themselves the thinking man's action wargame. There's got to be a growing number of long time gamers out there who are getting a bit tired of nothing but health crystals, cross-hairs, and heavily scripted action. Remember, this is the country that successfully marketed the pet rock and Donald Trump. What you need to do it place yourself squarely in the path of your prospective audiance and let them trip over you.

[Peter Cairns]

Ad Camapaign.

We're all to be sent a "Print file" so we can put adds in our home and car windows...

Hell if anything will hurt sales of CM:SF it is people under twenty stumblig across this forum and realising what a bunch of Sad old geeks play this game.....

Peter.

[Stavka_lite]

49 years old here, but the wife says I act like a twelve year old. My nineteen year old son and I play chess every week and its getting the point where I actually have to work to beat him now, but he is strictly RTS otherwise.

[MikeyD]

A couple days ago I turned on the TV to get a glimpse of morning weather and found some aging starlet on the Today show saying "50 is the new 30" ...or if I may put it more precisely, 50 is 30 with an enlarged prostate.

Me, I'm 51 and I've been finding simple first-person run-&-shoot games encreasingly hard to get enthused over, regardless of how cutting-edge the graphics are. If only BFC could tap into the expanding 'bored with recycled FPS' market.

[John_d]

22 years old, unemployed dosser. I was under the impression that CM:SF was going to be along the lines of the 'we go' system from the original CM series. Oh well.

To be honest, the community probably grows in a very unique way anyway. Most ppl who play these things tend to get a little obsessive about them and force it down the throats of their friends and families until they've been brainwashed into buying a copy for themselves to see what all this business about 'bounding overwatch' and the screams of 'DIE NAZI PIGDOGS' is about. Maybe 1 in 10 of the ppl u hassle into buying it will like it, become obsessed and force it on their friends, completing the cycle.

Maybe CMSF will get more ppl into the CM series, but I doubt that most of the new converts will be interested in the older titles. Thus hopefully we will have somewhere gentlemanly to discuss our favourite pastime without being interupted by spotty 15 year olds. May I suggest that we convert the old CMBO forum into a secret members lounge (seeing hardly anyone uses it anyway) where we can indulge in groggery in peace without others judging our secret passion for obscure military hardware.

[Dillweed]

Another clarification: When I mean popular, I mean popular for "traditional" PC games. While it would be nice, I don't think the CMx2 series is going to be as popular as the "mass market" games, say, the Sims or halo.

That being said, however, I don't think we can dismiss the potential for more realistic wargames to become popular in the RTS market. Certainly wargames were once quite popular (avalon hill anyone?) Even more important there has been several hits recently that suggest there is a market for realistic (albeit somewhat simplified) combat modeling. Full Spectrum Warrior, the Brothers in Arms series and to a lesser extent the America's Army game/recruiting tool.

Take BIA for example, the infantry modeling really isn't to bad, tactics wise

1) against other infantry: pin, flank, destroy

2) armor: stay the F-word away if you have no anti-tank weps, otherwise approach from blind spots and bazooka/p-faust

3) Artillery: push through initial casualties to cover if in the open, otherwise keep your head down.

Following these tips if leading an airborne platoon in CMBO would certainly be a good start, if not the end all be all.

So, there is potential for increased sales past the current market. I think what’s been holding real WGs back is their crustiness. Slow ponderous turns, crappy graphics, steep learning curves. Obviously there is a fair number of younger people playing, so I think their is hope. But the original question remains:

Is popularity good?

Most subcultures don't tend to do so well once they become popular. Too much money, to many suits trying to influence the product. I do really think we have the potential to get some really kick ass games out it tho.

Sure, BFC makes excellent games now, with their limited means and no real competition (at least nobody truly innovating like they are.) Just imagine tho what they could do with 10 times the budget with several other high profile studios for the to be err... influenced by.

To be fair, I think the best chance wargames have currently appears to be Drop Team. It sounds like a great easy to approach little game. It will certainly bring people into this website, and who know how many will be sucked into some of BFC's more hardcore faire?

[John_d]

Excellent point there Dillweed about the learning curve. Nearly all the people I have talked into picking up a cheap copy of the CM series have taken it bak within a week b/c it is too difficult to start off with. Eventually, I worked out that the only way of keeping there interest was to play TCP/IP with them and let them win half the time. Something like CM might have wdier appeal if it contained some kind of grading for the difficulty of the scenario, so novices could plactice on relatively easy missions before moving onto harder ones. Needn't take the form of level 1, level 2 etc, but just be included in the scenario description

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by sgtgoody (esq):

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Iron_man:

uh, i'm 16, didn't realize how many of you guys were in their 30s/40s.

Why do you think we are so cranky all the time. Not enough, sleep, sex, or money. And this game and forum don't help any of those. </font>

[Sgt Joch]

Originally posted by Dillweed:

I think CMSF has the potential to be a hit in the strategy gamer market. My question is this a good or a bad thing for the community?

Why would it be a bad thing for the community if CMSF is a hit? Battlefront would have more money to turn out higher quality products faster.

The market for quality realistic simulations is dying and things are only going to get worse as more games move to consoles like the XBOX.

If the price to pay to keep this market alive is to have a lot of new, fresh faces around, I say: "Welcome, young, green and soon to be crushed opponent!"

[Dillweed]

Originally posted by JC_Hare:

*YAWN* We hear this every 3 years when the new console come out.

[Moon]

Originally posted by juan_gigante:

One thing that might hurt CM:SF sales is if they are only through the website. Let's face it - for Joe Average, the local Best Buy is a lot more accesible that the site, and in stores you pick up a lot more impulse sales. "Oh, I remember seeing a review of that game. They said it was good. I guess I'll get it." would likely happen more than somebody randomly visiting the site on a whim and deciding to make a purchase. Anyways, I hope for BFC's sake they get some kind of distribution deal, preferably a better one than with CDV.

Selling via the website only is by design, not by accident. We could sign a distribution deal for CM:SF today, based on nothing more than what you guys have seen and heard so far. But we don't want that... and frankly, I think that you, the players, would be the big losers in such a deal.

Martin