CMx2's new movement system explained

[Jack Carr]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

...The ramifications of this new system are profound. To illustrate this, I'll describe (in generalized terms) something that was impossible to do in CMx1. In CMx2 if you wish to move a tank moving down a street and moving its turret around to cover potential threats, your Commands might look like this:

Waypoint 1 - Move, orientate turret right

Waypoint 2 - Move, orientate turret left

Waypoint 3 - Move, orientate turret right

Waypoint 4 - Stop, orientate turret center, button up

So for Waypoints 1-3 the player issues two Commands, and for Waypoint 4 issued three. Note that the player doesn't HAVE to issue three Commands per waypoint, just that it is possible to do this if so desired. Much of the time one Command per waypoint will be the norm because the usual Combat Commands are Persistent and Special/Admin Commands are not generally used. Was the lack of this sort of control missed by players? For sure it was to some extent. However, with the way CMx2 works now we expect that people would find the old system a serious liability.

Now, this does not mean the TacAI isn't going to do anything for you as it did in CMx1. Quite the contrary... the TacAI should be quite active in managing the little details. The difference is that the TacAI no longer has to read the player's mind for those situations which fall outside of the norm. For example, you don't have to tell a vehicle to rotate its turret towards a threat in order to engage it, then specify what type of ammo and how many shots to fire at it. 9 times out of 10 the TacAI's default behavior will handle all this stuff exceptionally well, especially because it now has a memory for targets. But when you want to conserve ammo and only whack a bunker ONCE or you have a hunch that a threat is coming from a particular direction, you can now give more guidance to the unit than you could in CMx1...

Steve

Nice!

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Jack Carr:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

...The ramifications of this new system are profound. To illustrate this, I'll describe (in generalized terms) something that was impossible to do in CMx1. In CMx2 if you wish to move a tank moving down a street and moving its turret around to cover potential threats, your Commands might look like this:

Waypoint 1 - Move, orientate turret right

Waypoint 2 - Move, orientate turret left

Waypoint 3 - Move, orientate turret right

Waypoint 4 - Stop, orientate turret center, button up

So for Waypoints 1-3 the player issues two Commands, and for Waypoint 4 issued three. Note that the player doesn't HAVE to issue three Commands per waypoint, just that it is possible to do this if so desired. Much of the time one Command per waypoint will be the norm because the usual Combat Commands are Persistent and Special/Admin Commands are not generally used. Was the lack of this sort of control missed by players? For sure it was to some extent. However, with the way CMx2 works now we expect that people would find the old system a serious liability.

Now, this does not mean the TacAI isn't going to do anything for you as it did in CMx1. Quite the contrary... the TacAI should be quite active in managing the little details. The difference is that the TacAI no longer has to read the player's mind for those situations which fall outside of the norm. For example, you don't have to tell a vehicle to rotate its turret towards a threat in order to engage it, then specify what type of ammo and how many shots to fire at it. 9 times out of 10 the TacAI's default behavior will handle all this stuff exceptionally well, especially because it now has a memory for targets. But when you want to conserve ammo and only whack a bunker ONCE or you have a hunch that a threat is coming from a particular direction, you can now give more guidance to the unit than you could in CMx1...

Steve

Nice! </font>

[junk2drive]

Originally posted by Sergei:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jack Carr:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

...The ramifications of this new system are profound. To illustrate this, I'll describe (in generalized terms) something that was impossible to do in CMx1. In CMx2 if you wish to move a tank moving down a street and moving its turret around to cover potential threats, your Commands might look like this:

Waypoint 1 - Move, orientate turret right

Waypoint 2 - Move, orientate turret left

Waypoint 3 - Move, orientate turret right

Waypoint 4 - Stop, orientate turret center, button up

So for Waypoints 1-3 the player issues two Commands, and for Waypoint 4 issued three. Note that the player doesn't HAVE to issue three Commands per waypoint, just that it is possible to do this if so desired. Much of the time one Command per waypoint will be the norm because the usual Combat Commands are Persistent and Special/Admin Commands are not generally used. Was the lack of this sort of control missed by players? For sure it was to some extent. However, with the way CMx2 works now we expect that people would find the old system a serious liability.

Now, this does not mean the TacAI isn't going to do anything for you as it did in CMx1. Quite the contrary... the TacAI should be quite active in managing the little details. The difference is that the TacAI no longer has to read the player's mind for those situations which fall outside of the norm. For example, you don't have to tell a vehicle to rotate its turret towards a threat in order to engage it, then specify what type of ammo and how many shots to fire at it. 9 times out of 10 the TacAI's default behavior will handle all this stuff exceptionally well, especially because it now has a memory for targets. But when you want to conserve ammo and only whack a bunker ONCE or you have a hunch that a threat is coming from a particular direction, you can now give more guidance to the unit than you could in CMx1...

Steve

Nice! </font>

[Sergei]

Originally posted by junk2drive:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sergei:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jack Carr:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

...The ramifications of this new system are profound. To illustrate this, I'll describe (in generalized terms) something that was impossible to do in CMx1. In CMx2 if you wish to move a tank moving down a street and moving its turret around to cover potential threats, your Commands might look like this:

Waypoint 1 - Move, orientate turret right

Waypoint 2 - Move, orientate turret left

Waypoint 3 - Move, orientate turret right

Waypoint 4 - Stop, orientate turret center, button up

So for Waypoints 1-3 the player issues two Commands, and for Waypoint 4 issued three. Note that the player doesn't HAVE to issue three Commands per waypoint, just that it is possible to do this if so desired. Much of the time one Command per waypoint will be the norm because the usual Combat Commands are Persistent and Special/Admin Commands are not generally used. Was the lack of this sort of control missed by players? For sure it was to some extent. However, with the way CMx2 works now we expect that people would find the old system a serious liability.

Now, this does not mean the TacAI isn't going to do anything for you as it did in CMx1. Quite the contrary... the TacAI should be quite active in managing the little details. The difference is that the TacAI no longer has to read the player's mind for those situations which fall outside of the norm. For example, you don't have to tell a vehicle to rotate its turret towards a threat in order to engage it, then specify what type of ammo and how many shots to fire at it. 9 times out of 10 the TacAI's default behavior will handle all this stuff exceptionally well, especially because it now has a memory for targets. But when you want to conserve ammo and only whack a bunker ONCE or you have a hunch that a threat is coming from a particular direction, you can now give more guidance to the unit than you could in CMx1...

Steve

Nice! </font>

[junk2drive]

Originally posted by Sergei:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by junk2drive:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sergei:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jack Carr:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

...The ramifications of this new system are profound. To illustrate this, I'll describe (in generalized terms) something that was impossible to do in CMx1. In CMx2 if you wish to move a tank moving down a street and moving its turret around to cover potential threats, your Commands might look like this:

Waypoint 1 - Move, orientate turret right

Waypoint 2 - Move, orientate turret left

Waypoint 3 - Move, orientate turret right

Waypoint 4 - Stop, orientate turret center, button up

So for Waypoints 1-3 the player issues two Commands, and for Waypoint 4 issued three. Note that the player doesn't HAVE to issue three Commands per waypoint, just that it is possible to do this if so desired. Much of the time one Command per waypoint will be the norm because the usual Combat Commands are Persistent and Special/Admin Commands are not generally used. Was the lack of this sort of control missed by players? For sure it was to some extent. However, with the way CMx2 works now we expect that people would find the old system a serious liability.

Now, this does not mean the TacAI isn't going to do anything for you as it did in CMx1. Quite the contrary... the TacAI should be quite active in managing the little details. The difference is that the TacAI no longer has to read the player's mind for those situations which fall outside of the norm. For example, you don't have to tell a vehicle to rotate its turret towards a threat in order to engage it, then specify what type of ammo and how many shots to fire at it. 9 times out of 10 the TacAI's default behavior will handle all this stuff exceptionally well, especially because it now has a memory for targets. But when you want to conserve ammo and only whack a bunker ONCE or you have a hunch that a threat is coming from a particular direction, you can now give more guidance to the unit than you could in CMx1...

Steve

Nice! </font>

[Jack Carr]

Yes. It sounds to me like they've improved upon the CMX1 engine by giving the player a little more control over what occurs during the movement. He did say that the units AI will still kick in if a threat presents itself.

I also like the unit memory concerning hostile targets that suddenly disappear from sight. This always plagued me in CMX1.

Is there something that was said that you think will be a negative?

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Jack Carr:

Is there something that was said that you think will be a negative?

No. But you forgot to quote the whole post this time!

P.S. Apologies to the mankind, I'm a moron. :cool: :mad:

[Battlefront.com]

No pony for you young man! I've been told you don't clean up your bedroom and didn't finish all your vegies at last night's dinner. You're lucky I don't ground you, young man!

A pony indeed!

Steve

[Jack Carr]

My apologies. I just quoted the part that sounded like it would be a good addition. Sorry for the confusion. Aren't you one of the Four Horsemen?

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Jack Carr:

Aren't you one of the Four Horsemen?

No. I'm one of the Five Toothpick Lancers of Perdition.

[Jack Carr]

Oh, right! How could I have thrown you in with that other bunch. Once again, my apologies.

[junk2drive]

Originally posted by Sergei:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jack Carr:

Aren't you one of the Four Horsemen?

No. I'm one of the Five Toothpick Lancers of Perdition. </font>

[Bruce70]

Since there is now a RT option, I want to revisit an earlier question I had.

In CMx1, when you plot a move for your tank that would take it through heavy woods, the TacAI replots a course *after* the turn has started. I suggested that with faster computers, this could now be done on-the-fly, which would allow you to change this route before the turn started.

Since CMx2 has a RT option, this must now be the case for RT, but will it also be the case for the turn-based game? Will we be able to edit the AI's path *before* the turn starts?

[Battlefront.com]

We can probably do the TacAI pathing on the fly at the time the Commands are placed. At least that is planned.

Steve

[Thomm]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

We can probably do the TacAI pathing on the fly at the time the Commands are placed.

That rocks ... HARD!!!!

Best regards,

Thomm

[undead reindeer cavalry]

it sure rocks, but it's too bad if it means that stuff that can't be calcuated real time can not be in the WEGO game.

[Battlefront.com]

Not sure what you mean. If we can do this for RT it can be done for WeGo as well. If anything it might be possible to do for WeGo and not for RealTime.

Steve

[dumrox]

I think he meant if you have to leave stuff out of the WeGo gameplay because you couldn't get it to work in RT. Based on your last statement, sounds like you won't let that happen.

[Battlefront.com]

There might be something that can't happen for WeGo because of RealTime, but that obviously means it won't be available for either RT or WG. There are always tradeoffs and sacrifices when pursuing one course of action vs. another. Overall the benefits of the underlying CMx2's continuous time based game engine very clearly outweigh the CMx1 turn based system. And not just for RT play but also for WeGo play.

Steve

[Peter Cairns]

Steve,

How will RT work in a scenario where one player has a far larger force to move than the other, say an ambush on a convoy where one palyer has a small largely hidden, dormant force that needs little ordering, and the other has multiple units to move and coordinate.

Peter.

[Bruce70]

I think it's great that the underlying engine is now RT. In single player games, when I can pause as often as I want, I will probably use the RT option (don't really know yet though). But, if you can't pause in multiplayer games (?), I would probably stick to WeGo for larger games.

[Cpl Steiner]

I played a game once called "Space Hulk" (don't laugh) and in that they had a very ingenious way of dealing with the problems of planning and orders versus RT.

In SH you could pause to issue orders but you only had a certain amount of time available before it reverted automatically to RT. Whilst in RT, you accumulated time for use in giving orders when the game was paused. This encouraged you to try to manage in RT as much as possible, to accumulate pause time for when you really needed to make major changes to your battle plan.

I think this was a really clever way of doing a combination of RT and WeGo, and could be revisited in CMx2. The amount of pause time you have available could also be modified by relative force size, by having a larger force accumulate pause time whilst in RT at a faster rate than for a smaller force. This would ensure that, after a minute or so of RT, the player would have enough pause time to adequately give orders to a sizeable number of his units, regardless of how many he controlled.

[M1A1TC]

Space Hulk was awesome!! I love Games Workshop's stuff

[aka_tom_w]

I hope there is an option for Realtime that will not allow the dreaded "pause".

As an option of Realtime of course

If you want to pause or can't play RealTime without the opportunity to pause, why not just play good old WeGo?? :confused:

How will RT work in a scenario where one player has a far larger force to move than the other, say an ambush on a convoy where one palyer has a small largely hidden, dormant force that needs little ordering, and the other has multiple units to move and coordinate.

for the answer to that question it could just be considered a form of handicap. I would suggest the player with the smaller force has fewer units and it likely to get creamed by the larger force, BUT the player with the fewer units can pay more attention to each unit while the player with the larger attacking force gets more units, BUT must "attend" to MORE units in RealTime and perhaps spend less time commanding each unit, and that could be considered a form of handicap as well.

IMHO

-tom w

[Bruce70]

Originally posted by Cpl Steiner:

I played a game once called "Space Hulk" (don't laugh) and in that they had a very ingenious way of dealing with the problems of planning and orders versus RT.

In SH you could pause to issue orders but you only had a certain amount of time available before it reverted automatically to RT. Whilst in RT, you accumulated time for use in giving orders when the game was paused. This encouraged you to try to manage in RT as much as possible, to accumulate pause time for when you really needed to make major changes to your battle plan.

I think this was a really clever way of doing a combination of RT and WeGo, and could be revisited in CMx2. The amount of pause time you have available could also be modified by relative force size, by having a larger force accumulate pause time whilst in RT at a faster rate than for a smaller force. This would ensure that, after a minute or so of RT, the player would have enough pause time to adequately give orders to a sizeable number of his units, regardless of how many he controlled.

I mentioned this in another thread, but I couldn't remember the name of the game. (actually I think something similar might have been used in a few games) Anyway, Steve said that they have already considered and dismissed this in favour of a better solution ("the new C&C system")... which I am very keen to hear about BTW!