Snipers? or just guys with fancy scopes?

[Hev]

It seems to me that snipers are still seriously undermoddled in the game. I was playing The Farm mkII and my sniper/scout squad on the left flank missed almost all thier shots from under 200 meters.

I was watching a program about american sniper training and one of thier instructors was saying they train for headshots upto 300 meters and moving targets at upto 800 meteres.

Is there a "take lenscap off scope" hotkey im missing?

[Cpl Steiner]

After the first sniper shot, whether it hits or misses, I would have thought that subsequent shots would have a much lower hit chance, just because the enemy is alerted to the sniper. Was the target suppressed by the sniper fire in your game? I would be happy with the simulation if there is a very high kill chance with the first shot and a much reduced kill chance but a much increased suppression chance with subsequent shots. Too many easy kills could potentially make snipers an uber-weapon like Javelins.

[MikeyD]

Snipers do seem to be a bit improved with this build. Longer intervals between individual shots. The wingman less likely to open fire at the same time with his M4. The problem seems to be less the sniper and more with the target's reactions. More suppression would be good (though it would drive us craze with AI snipers). One problem may have to do with map size/scenario dynamics. A sniper team finds itself in the middle of a meelee engagement under its nose and switches to 'infantry' mode with everybody firing all they got.

[YankeeDog]

Tricky part is that sniper miss, or even hit, shouldn't always mean supression.

From what I've read, in noiser, more active environments like what CM usually represents (such as a running firefight nearby), the target often won't even realize that a sniper bullet just flew by his head, and even if he hears the gun report, he may just assume that is part of the general alarum, and not necessarily aimed in his direction.

An excellent example is actually contained in Sgt. York's MoH action from WWI -- He used a "Turkey Shoot" tactic, targeting the last in line of a group of German soldiers. Since the other Germans didn't see their comrades get hit, they weren't aware they were under aimed fire from an unexpected angle, and Sgt. York was able to pick them off one by one.

On the other side of the coin, you can read numerous accounts from almost any modern war where a single hit, or even near miss from a sniper will drive an entire platoon or company to ground until the sniper is rooted out or driven off. It all depends on the tactical situation and details.

Therefore, quite a tricky thing to model correctly. Uber-snipers that send entire units diving for the dirt every time they just fire a round in the general direction probably isn't very realisitic in the kind of hot firefight situation CM usually depicts (lower intensity patrol actions would be a different matter). But neither is a unit continuing blithely about its business while sniper rounds pass within inches of the soldiers' heads. . .

Cheers,

YD

[Hev]

The target wasnt supressed, in fact they returned fire and eventualy wiped out the snipers. I think they got one kill!

Thing that made me bring this up was i saw a clip somewhere of snipers hitting rabits at 200 meteres ( if not more ) Snipers in the game couldnt hit a person at half that range.

Now im starting to get a niggling feeling about this but whats the point of haveing a wargame with sniper units if they dont behave and have the charecteristics of a real life sniper team?

If real life snipers can make shots then they should be able to in game!

[Pandur]

another thing about sinpers, iam constantly finding red snipers wich do not show the "scope" symbol next to their gun!?

do we have ironsighted SVD snipers for RED!?

[missinginreality]

I popped a roo at close to 150m with an M14 and iron sights for chrissy dinner once.No incoming at the time tho

[Hev]

Bloody ausies..... good shot tho, howd he taste?

[missinginreality]

Pretty good bit of filet mignon marinaded in orange juice for a few hours. Choice.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Pandur:

do we have ironsighted snipers for RED!?

It worked for Lee Harvey Oswald, didn't it?

[Pandur]

lol yes, if red snipers would be marines ill take em without scope too

[C'Rogers]

I think the main issue that throws off comparisons between normal sniper reports and television programs is that we are using snipers in battle. The targets aren't just sitting around, they are expecting to get shot at. Which should mean lower hit rates and less of the frightening suppression factor (would they even know that a sniper was shooting at them and just not a normal soldier).

Now this isn't to defend the current model as I haven't used snipers much, but a reminder of what the game is modeling. As Steve once said they aren't making a sniper simulator.

[Hev]

They ARE making a combat simulation/wargame tho and snipers are a unit they choose to put in ( and are obviously integral to the stryker unit ) so they should be moddled accurately at least when compared to the rest of the game. Hence snipers should be more effective at both killing and suppressing the enemy.

[LongLeftFlank]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pandur:

do we have ironsighted snipers for RED!?

It worked for Lee Harvey Oswald, didn't it? </font>

[LongLeftFlank]

... Or [mandatory Canadian content/] that the Avro Arrow prototype and blueprints WEREN'T dumped in Lake Ontario by the RCMP on the personal orders of John Diefenbaker.[/mandatory Canadian content]

[Secondbrooks]

Originally posted by Pandur:

do we have ironsighted SVD snipers for RED!?

Why not?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4

EDIT: Besides the picture of scope just points the fact that soldier is trained marksman (scope visible).

[Meach]

Originally posted by Pandur:

another thing about sinpers, iam constantly finding red snipers wich do not show the "scope" symbol next to their gun!?

do we have ironsighted SVD snipers for RED!?

I believe that in this case the guy got handed a sniper rifle and told "Well done, Abdul, your now a marksman!"

The SVD is pretty much the first marksman rifle mass produced and as such as per Soviet Doctrine, each infantry squad gets one in it's BMP so one lucky chap gets to play sniper. Don't matter so much if he's well trained. It's there so it gets used.

[JasonC]

An SVD in each squad is Russian doctrine. It enables the squad to reach out to 600 to 1000 meter ranges with aimed fire.

Each regiment in Russian practice selected and trained 18 marksmen to a higher standard, in addition to the one per squad. These were given a spotter each in two teams of two at platoon level.

The marksmen was a conscript who did particularly well in the basic rifle course, which is practice means someone who hit consistently at 300 yards with iron sights. They were then given additional training by sniper instructors - not in fieldcraft, but in use of the scope, windage adjustments, etc, and of course just firing time. 5 to 6 days per month in Russian practice, for the length of their enlistment.

[Pandur]

training aside, i never ever saw a picture anywhere on the net where you see a SVD without PSO1 or the night vision equivalent other than in "representation" shots.

its pointless to grab an SVD if it has no scope, at its unwieldly and has a smal mag capacity compared to the 47´s or 74´s. plus, you dont see further or more accurate with it, than with anyting else when you have no scope.

[Battlefront.com]

Pandur,

SVDs are scoped. That icon is a "Speciality" which shows the guy possessing a scoped rifle is a cut above an average rifleman. IIRC I didn't give that attribute out to all Syrians who have SVDs.

Snipers are at their best when the enemy is not expecting to get shot at that particular moment. Snipers are less effective in the thick of a fairly intense, short range fight. Partly because the targets are (or should be) in a state of alert, partly because the enemy isn't as likely to freak out when someone suddenly falls down. There is a BIG difference between a Squad walking around in the "rear" to get some chow and suddenly getting shot at by a sniper than a Squad actively engaged in a tactical combat situation.

In Iraq today, for example, a single sniper can derail a fairly large patrol from doing whatever it was tasked with doing. They might spend a few hours trying to hunt down the sniper even if he didn't do more than crack off a couple of inaccurate shots. In a more or less normal combat situation those shots wouldn't be paid attention to if they were noticed in the first place.

What I'm getting at here is people need to be extremely careful when comparing situations. Too often it's apples to oranges, just like comparing the inherent accuracy of a weapon on a target range in optimal conditions to the actual accuracy of the same weapon when being used in combat by a guy who just soiled his shorts after watching his buddy's head vaporize. Context, therefore, is critically important to take into consideration.

Steve

[M1A1TC]

"..guy who just soiled his shorts after watching his buddy's head vaporize" Is this modelled in the game?

[Battlefront.com]

Not explicitly

Steve

[Pandur]

SVDs are scoped. That icon is a "Speciality" which shows the guy possessing a scoped rifle is a cut above an average rifleman. IIRC I didn't give that attribute out to all Syrians who have SVDs.

exellent, all clear now.

i saw the symbol for sure at an SF sniper and i didnt saw it for combatant snipers.

makes sense, thanks for making that clear.

[FAI]

Originally posted by missinginreality:

I popped a roo at close to 150m with an M14 and iron sights for chrissy dinner once.No incoming at the time tho

Will Smith should train more with you

[missinginreality]

he probably gets to buy his dinner. I had good motivation, it was either make the shot or beef again for the 100th day in a row!