permanent666 Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 hi i'm trying to create a mout scenario with a lot of air- and artillery-support. but i have experienced that air strikes are way to inaccurate for the use in an urban environment. i was hoping that an experienced jtac + an exp. f15-pilot could deliver a "smart"-bomb at a building but most of the time they fail their target. once an ah64 killed a jtac soldier 300m away from the target- deployed on a rooftop with a rocket spray only attacks with machine-guns seem to be precise are the us-weapon systems that inaccurate? edit: you can see the crater of the attack in the back - spotter was a fire support bradley edit2: the pilot hitted the target on the third bombrun [ March 02, 2008, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: permanent666 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMotion Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 If those bombs did hit the target every time - how close to target would you put friendly troops? What would be a safe distance for the biggest bomb in the game? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan/california Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 Part of the problem is that the field manual minimum safe distance for some of this ordinance is about the size of most CMSF maps. Hopefully the continued progresion of Moore's law will gradually fix this. [ March 02, 2008, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: dan/california ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
permanent666 Posted March 2, 2008 Author Share Posted March 2, 2008 i don't know how accurate laser guided bombs are in reallife. this is my question? in which way is cas used in urban battles - for my test i used different setups and the hitrate was very low even with the small bombs. i came to the result that the best way to attack a building is to use the ah64 with heavy - but most of the time he uses the ffar rockets when the guided rockets are gone. and the ffar are deadly especially for your own troops (but i can remember that this was discussed in another thread) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flanker15 Posted March 2, 2008 Share Posted March 2, 2008 Rockets are the drunken shot gun of the gods remember. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the Fighting Seabee Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 That still needs to be fixed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiny_tanker Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 In my experience (RL not in game) LGB's are as accurate as the guy lasing the target, not counting system failures ie bad fuze (ever see a bomb bounce? its wicked) or guidance system failure. You can put one through a window if you want. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 The chapter on Air Support has most of the answers for your questions Starts on Page 82 with accuracy figures on Page 85. The numbers there are straight from military field manuals. Rockets, as you found out, are very inaccurate. The key thing to do is make sure you use a Point Target command. This will ensure that the Air Asset uses its most precision weapon on that target. Area generally results in the target area being targeted with whatever is best suited to the target type you selected. If you select Area and General you're going to find the dumb bombs dropped, for example. On top of that, Tiny_Tanker is correct that there are a lot of variables that go into determining of even the smartest of smartest guided weapons hits where it is supposed to. That's all covered in the Air Support chapter. Hope that helps! Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 permanent666, With an accurately aimed laser designator, no disruption to the person running it (not under fire), a cleanly separated, fully armed bomb, proper guidance and no blocked LOS to either seeker or designator, you can put a bomb right through the window of a typical military truck. I've seen it done to trucks, bunkers entrances, etc. Used to work for Hughes Aircraft, which built the GLLD (Ground Locator Laser Designator, a substantial affair on tripod) and the earlier rifle like handheld designators, whose nomenclature I don't recall. Iraq--Real deal designation & strike sequence. Fallujah--Strike retargeted from building to exposed insurgents in street and on the move. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QI7uoRvKX0&feature=related LGB vs truck in Serbia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1bQufmgGTw&feature=related Here is some good information on the Hydra 70 and where it's going. Pay careful attention to the ballistic dispersion chart. www.dtic.mil/ndia/2003gun/hawl.pdf Air Force firepower demonstrations and weapon tests. Medley of missile and bomb footage (mit music) Regards, John Kettler [ March 03, 2008, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: John Kettler ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
permanent666 Posted March 3, 2008 Author Share Posted March 3, 2008 @steve very good read - i didn't notice this chapter in the pdf file. (shame on me) i will make some more tests to find out which combination of spotter aircraft and attack mission will be the best. because i want to avoid collateral damage in my scenario. maybe i will post the results afterwards. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
permanent666 Posted March 3, 2008 Author Share Posted March 3, 2008 ok here i'm back after 2 hours of testing - i won't go into detail but one can say that medium and light antitank elements perform best in an urban environement. especially mavericks and hellfires are almost 100% accurate. but it seems that antitank planes are equipped with the better gbus too and hit their targets very often. to hit a target with a gbu dropped form a plane from the air support elements is pure luck - (about 1 out of 4) and therefore they are useless in urban combat. and once again the ah64: his hellfires are great but there is no way to prevent him to use his inaccurate ffar rockets. maybe there will be some tweaking? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdstrike Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 Interesting, thanks. Have you checked how equipment quality affects the chance to hit? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 permanent666, Glad that chapter helped I'll check with Charles about having the rockets held back for Point Targets. Probably doable! Experience should matter more the less accurate the weapon is. Spotter Experience is sometimes critical. Depends on the situation. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 Oh, and check out the different groupings of Air Support in the Editor. One grouping has weapons loadouts that are optimized for anti-armor, the other is there for general support purposes. Both have internal divisions in terms of how much their loadouts are weighted towards heavy hitting stuff. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 So, is a patch going to give the JTACs radios when they are dismounted? Right now they look kinda silly, having to hollar adjustments at the airplanes when they aren't in their Stryker. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
permanent666 Posted March 4, 2008 Author Share Posted March 4, 2008 @birdstrike i used elite experience and excellent equipment for the spotters and the planes 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdstrike Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 'kay thanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
permanent666 Posted March 4, 2008 Author Share Posted March 4, 2008 ok i did some more "testing" (ok i have to be honest i only fooled around with my scenario) and noticed two issues with air support: issue1: one can spot hidden infantry units deployed in and at houses issue2: most of the time after destroying a target (house) one has to cease fire manually - which means the aircraft wastes another rocket or bomb due to the long response times of the cease fire command 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Support missions that target buildings should (in v1.08) now automatically ceasefire when the building is destroyed. Rocket fire is now less likely to be used in urban terrain as well. Thanks for the feedback, because that's why these two things changed Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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