When WW2 CMx2

[kryger]

I don’t like the idea of fighting a future war against an existing country. I really don’t like, playing that kind of game.

So when will WW2 versions be ready.

[Webwing]

The release date for CMSF hasn't been officially announced yet.

Still, some speculation on the release of next CMx2 game point to the end of 2007.

And the devs say it will definitely be WWII.

-

[YankeeDog]

While having the basic engine already completed will certainly cut down on the time to develop CMx2:WWII, I think people are underestimating the time it will take to create all those new 3D models, skins, terrain types, etc., as well as add a few new features to the engine (Steve has already mentioned that AT Guns and Water will be needed for the WWII release)

I would be very surprised to see CMx2:WWII before the second half of 2008, at the earliest. Happily suprised, mind you.

Cheers,

YD

[Redwolf]

YankeeDog is straight on.

Although we already know we will never see a full-theater CM again (particular campaigns only), there's still a lot of junk rolling around that is now much harder to model.

In the bright side, there is a lot of work in animations such as for soldiers, which can probably be reused as-is.

Overall, any 2007 date for CMx2b is unrealistic.

[Sequoia]

Hmm, bsides water and AT guns there's also on-board mortars, flame throwers, guys riding on tanks, guys jumping out of halftracks...

Can anyone else thing of more MUST HAVE things needed for the WWII first game (US vs Germans in Normandy 1944)? And do try and keep it to must have.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Sequoia:

Hmm, bsides water and AT guns there's also on-board mortars, flame throwers, guys riding on tanks, guys jumping out of halftracks...

Can anyone else thing of more MUST HAVE things needed for the WWII first game (US vs Germans in Normandy 1944)? And do try and keep it to must have.

With water comes bridges.

Bocage.

Houses with sloping roofs. Church steeples and bell towers. Village wells. All the screenshots I've seen of CMSF show flat roofs. Gonna have to model it different for Europe. Can infantry go up there? Do they want to? Gotta model animations for that, if so.

On a related note, cellars. Not an inconsiderable challenge for the coders, I think.

Culin hedgerow device. This was abstracted in CMBO.

Underbelly hits. Gotta program the AI to take those shots.

Ability to split squads on historical lines rather than two man fireteams as is 2007 practice.

Panzerfaust availability.

Anti-tank magnetic mines. And a morale model to let the Germans use them.

Teller mines as improvised anti-tank device.

Anti-tank mines.

Schu-mines.

Rifle grenades vs personnel.

Rifle grenades as anti-tank device.

Open-topped AFVs and all that goes with them - mortar fire vs., close assaults against, etc.

Halftracks were mentioned above, but what about coding the vehicle to actually drive like one - mobility would be different than a full track or a wheeled vehicle. Again, these are not in CM:SF. Pretty much standard for a US armored infantry battalion, not essential for a German order of battle but certainly expected by the game playing public.

Trailers - including reverse movement. Even if just for jeeps, but some flame vehicles and SPs used trailers for ammunition. Probably not essential until you get to the Crocodile - bear in mind US forces used them, notably at Brest, though the vehicles and crews were British.

Come to that - reverse movement for German armoured cars, especially those with two drivers. An armoured car with a second driver would be at a big tactical advantage compared to a regular vehicle. This should be coded specially.

Completely different offboard artillery procedures (current US Army artillery is oncall to a lot more people than in 1944, and the Germans handled it differently also at least in terms of time of response).

Tactical air support pretty much non-existent in 1944 at the company level. But they existed over the front - so did the fact that IFF was much more crude. So you need to change your parameters to make friendly fire even more likely if you are including friendly aircraft. And make them far less lethal to the enemy as well. Would need to be treated in the engine much differently, I think, from what every goes on under the hood in a fictional Syria 2007 scenario.

Rocket artillery - Nebelwerfer and Calliope; the latter probably needn't be modelled but the former should probably be - and would you just use the MRLS model from CM:SF (is it even modelledin CM:SF?) or would you need to do something different? Should it have a distinct morale effect? Off the top of my head, I would think it would be more inaccurate than modern rocket artillery, but again, perhaps not a "must have", but that depends on the exact formation you choose to simulate.

Rain - lots of it, and not just drops on the screen - in an hour long battle, water should pool up in low lying areas, create mud, puddles, adversely effect driving. This needs to be modelled.

Fog - the ability to lift, roll, come back in again.

Night - no night vision equipment. Moon phases. Cloud cover. Starshells. Trip flares.

Ability for map designer to pack villages very densely (closer than 5 metres)

AI able to drive vehicles through same villages, including single lane roads

MGs that can go from LMG to HMG mode (MG34 on lafette mount, switchable to light mode) during the game.

Light mortars as indicated onboard and offboard.

Poor communication between friendly tanks and infantry should be modelled - again, this is much different than a 2007 model would be. Radio comms between a tank platoon and an infantry company would be much different in 1944, if such even existed in some units.

Weapons:

M-1 Garand

M-1 Garand sniper

Springifle sniper

M-1 Carbine

M-2 Carbine

M-3 Carbine

Browning Automatic Rifle

M1919 MMG

M1919 HMG

M1919 LMG

.50 calibre HMG, ground mount

Thompson SMG

M3 SMG

.45 M1911A1 autopistol

MP40

Kar98k

K98 sniper

K43

K43 sniper

MP43

FG42

P08/P38 pistol

MG34

MG42

Vehicles

Jeep

Beep

Seep

M3 HT

M3A1 HT

M16 HT

M9 HT

M21 HT

M5 tank

M4 tank

10 other types of friggin M4 tanks

M10 TD

M36 TD

M18 TD

2-1/2 ton truck

armoured cars - M20, M8

PzKpfw IVF2

10 other types of friggin PzKpfw IV

PzKpfw V

PzKpfw VI

Most StuGs than I can count

Ditto Panzerjäger types

Kübelwagen

light truck

medium truck

SP AA trucks

SP mtr vehicles

Armoured cars! 2 wheels, 4 wheels, Puma, armed, unarmed funkwagens

Ordnance

57mm ATG

75mm ATG

Bazooka

FT

5.0cm ATG

7.5cm ATG

8.8cm AA/AT

PzSchreck

20mm AA

quad 20mm AA

37mm AA

FT

German grenade bundles

New 3d models for all this, plus skins for all of them. And deciduous trees. Evergreens. Grain. Probably a whole new UI.

Program the AI to change engagement ranges. American tanks won't want to engage enemy tanks at 1500 metres the way an Abrams crew might. Model the shot trap on the Panther. Deliberate immobilization attempts. Fire smoke and HE at a Panther or Tiger, try and fool the crew into bailing out by setting his stowage on fire or filling his ventilator with fumes. M1 Abrams don't need to resort to that, but Sherman crews do. Should be modelled. Probably wouldn't need to be in CM:SF.

Schürzen. Zimmerit. Nahveirteidigungswaffe. Soft (sandbag) armour. All that stuff needs to be coded and modelled and tweaked because it was all used and CMBO didn't model all of it. It isn't a case of just plugging it into the new engine, I don't think.

German infantry tactics - do these differ significantly from the Syrians? I'm betting they do. How did a German squad do business? The MG was the centre of attention. The use of outposts appears to have been big. Should the German squad be allowed to split into smaller groups than a US squad? Either way, I'd hope to see them coded significantly differently than Syrian or US troops circa 2007. Otherwise, what is the point? Just mod the uniforms and put a different label on the DVD in that case.

I'd say there would be plenty to keep BF.C's little design team of coders and artists busy for more than a week or two in order to put out a quality Second World War title for CMX2.

[ May 17, 2007, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Webwing]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

My goodness Michael!!!! If they use your list as a guide it will easily take a decade to finish with the resources they've got. :eek:

Still, an awesome list.

Hope they find a way to do it all in a reasonable time frame.

I was almost forgetting. They mentioned they would be also working on some other ADDONS for CMFS at the same time as doing the WW2 game. Now I'd like to know how they will pull that off.

[ May 17, 2007, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: Webwing ]

[C'Rogers]

This question also depends on how many modules they decide to do.

I believe they have said they expect each title after they get the engine done to expect six months of solid work, after which was added you should probably expect a year when consider underestimation and unexpected problems that come up in the development cycle.

[Michael Dorosh]

Update: the countdown starts July 27, 2007.

[Sixxkiller]

I am giving 10 to 1 odds that CMx2 WW2 isnt released until after 1 August 2007. Any takers?

[Severin]

CMSF was announced Oct 8 2005. That makes it about 21 months from announcement to release.

I'm going on record as saying the US will probably have a new president before CMx2 WW2.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Severin:

I'm going on record as saying the US will probably have a new president before CMx2 WW2.

Dick Cheney?

[Baron von Beergut]

Hey Sixx - I agree - Maybe Sept or later, but still before CMC

[Severin]

I knew some smart ass wouldn't be able to resist that one. I should have know it would be you sergei.

If we go down that route I imagine Big Dick's head will be on the block (in a strictly political sense, Secret Service) long before Bush.

[flammenwerfer]

Darth Cheney IS the President.

[slysniper]

Way too many high hopes here, With shock force still not out and looking at the company's track record of past performances, even with the same engine being used for a WWII version.

I will give them a min. of a year and a half to get something out, that is after they get shock force out and their revisions of fixing bugs once it is out.

Now once the first module is done you might get lucky and start seeing additional modules roll out about every 9 months, of course you will need to keep putting out funds to get a little more of what you want. but for sure they will sell you WWII in small bites this time. They are getting smart.

[Boris Balaban]

Originally posted by Severin:

CMSF was announced Oct 8 2005. That makes it about 21 months from announcement to release.

I'm going on record as saying the US will probably have a new president before CMx2 WW2.

You might be right I am sorry to say.

May be they will release a CMx3?

[Sequoia]

So is hand to hand combat a "must have" for WWII?

[patboy]

Originally posted by flammenwerfer:

Darth Cheney IS the President.

Lol !

[Nick Schieben]

I just wish some other company would pick up the ball with this. It could be a very long wait...

[Michael Dorosh]

Should also add night combat; I suspect it was much different in Normandy than it would be in Syria, especially given a lack of night equipment and a much different approach to training. Artificial moonlight, for example.

[Kineas]

Originally posted by Sequoia:

So is hand to hand combat a "must have" for WWII?

I think it is.

[David Chapuis]

Dorosh you get the 2007 JasonC gold-standard award for that long post.

[Becket]

Originally posted by Sequoia:

Can anyone else thing of more MUST HAVE things needed for the WWII first game (US vs Germans in Normandy 1944)? And do try and keep it to must have.

Sure. Get rid of the US and Normandy, replace it with the Soviets and Bagration.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by David Chapuis:

Dorosh you get the 2007 JasonC gold-standard award for that long post.

Not even close. Dorosh only wrote a list, not an essay that mentions every object in that list in a meaningful way.

That'll be his homework.