For Me, If WEGO Goes, I Go

[average]

I've got this feeling WEGO appeals to OCD type personalities. Turned based wargaming is for a tiny minority of players, but a very vocal tiny minority. WeGo IIRC was invented to overcome some of the dumber aspects of pure turn based. RT overcomes the dumber aspects of WeGo.

I wouldn't mind betting that Close Combat sold more copies than Matrix/Cammo Workshop and CMBO sold put together.

Seriously, a good plan is one that you can execute. This micromanagement of individual sections is nonsense as well.

If you can't make your plan work issuing point and click commands, then is it really a good command ?

You can't be everywhere at once, and half the fun is to work with the limits of your command structure.

Personally, I love real time, you get more depth, immersion and the rest. Together with C2 its just the best wargame ever.I don't like knowing exactly what happended. I want to figure it out on the fly, formulate a plan and action it. Not puzzle it out like chess.

I suggest the WEGO or the IGO crowd invest in a chess set and start backing up their copies of CMBO.

[Janster]

Haha, your like averagly clueless I guess.

Citing realism to support RTS behaviour is just a gem to treasure.

As others said, once you want to control bigger forces, RTS is gonna wear you down...and more so when you have shoddy tools at your disposal.

You try THIS interface on a brigade eh..

micromanagement becomes a neccesity when the AI can't or wont do what you want on the battlefield.

Basically your asking for a lasso to rope units and just right click on the enemy..

Wow, thats like...very advanced..I suggest YOU go and play football instead..its RTS too.

Janster

[ChrisND]

I think some of the forum bad-asses in here need to calm down.

[metalbrew]

Originally posted by average:

I suggest the WEGO or the IGO crowd invest in a chess set and start backing up their copies of CMBO.

Uh, yeah.... Here ya go. The mall ninja clan meets on Tuesdays.

[average]

Hahaha.

Janster, did I say any of things you just attributed to me?

Fighting a Bn with every section under my command is not my idea of a good pass time. It might be yours.

We are obviously going to disagree about realism, but the point I'm making is that a commander doesn't have infinite time, comms bandwidth, personality or situational awareness to go into the level of planning typically involved in WEGO style gameplay.

I like a good size company engagement. Simply as that, its what I understand. Ideally, I could push some of the burden further down the chain (ie push down to plt level things like the absolute level of aggression and maybe set up some drills and SOPs on contact) to free up a little bit of time.

If you want something really close to the real deal for fighting larger formations, I suggest you invest in a copy of TacOps 4. Its really rather good if pushing a BN down a highway is your idea of fun.

Finally, it tells me something about the fat slothful public servant mindset that treasures WEGO that you suggest I go and play Football instead, because its an RTS.

Incidentally, I do like a game of Rugby Union every so often. Actually, you've hit on something, I must be dumb. Sorry, I'll stop posting now, I understand your view of combat operations is the only correct view, and those of us who think realism equals friction, time pressure and all the rest are airsofting rugby players.

Finally, while I think of it, its not exactly that frantic in real time as it is, most of the time your just using fires to dominate and deny terrain rather than getting in real close and dirty (at least when your blue).

[ July 29, 2007, 11:25 PM: Message edited by: average ]

[Kineas]

Originally posted by average:

I suggest the WEGO or the IGO crowd invest in a chess set and start backing up their copies of CMBO.

Actually CM:SF made me to search after ASL a few months ago (I didn't know anything about it), and I like it very much

[Battlefront.com]

Janster,

You're entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong others feel it is (and I think you are completely clueless, personally). However, you're abusive tone and absolute ridicule of anybody who challenges your poorly formed, knee-jerk comments is not going to last long here. If you have NO INTEREST in entering into an honest discussion, where you actually LISTEN as much as you spout off, I'm going to have to make you the first person banned since the game has come out.

Negative opinions we can tollerate. Abusive posters we will not.. I've been cutting you slack because I know English is not your native language, but you are trying my patience because I think you know very well what you are saying and how you are saying it.

In short, start being respectful of others or you will lose the privelege to be here.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Here it is officially from us, if it makes Janster feel any better...

CM:SF can not support very large formations of troops under the command of someone in RealTime. That's obvious to anybody with 1/2 a brain, so I'm not sure why you think this is a relavent thing to point out. Playing a tactical WeGO battle with a division's worth of troops down to Teams isn't practical either, so does that mean WeGo is worthless? Obviously not, so again... I don't understand the point you are trying to make.

CMx2 in RealTime will only become capable of commanding forces in battalion sized engagements when we introduce CoPlay (many people playing on one side). That's still quite a ways off, but we have to start somewhere and we've already started.

Personally, I never play WeGo (as I've said many times before). It will remain an equal partner in CMx2 for the life of the game engine, so don't worry about that. Why it bugs the WeGo people so much to have people playing it RT is really beyond me. Guess they don't like the competition

Steve

[jomni]

If anyone wants a true war game where you act as a commander in the real sense... then get these two games...

1) HPS's Point of Attack 2. This is WEGO, and you give commands down the chain of command (not individual units). Your sub leaders will handle the rest. You are the task force commander so it also models friendly fog of war. You won't know where your troops are unless they give you a SITREP. And SITREPs and commands can clog your comms bandwidth. This is the true commander simulation in my book.

2) Panther Game's Highway to the Reich. This is Realtime. You can only give commands to your commanders down the chain of command. Give commands to battalion commander and he will give orders to the companies. Give orders to a single company and he becomes detached from battalion and goes directly under you. This is a blast to play as there is no crazy clicking. Commands go through the logical hierarchy.

Obviously Battlefront does not want to model the games to this level of accuracy. It never did do so even with CMx1.

Going RT seems to be a natural evolution. But for me I prefer WEGO for multiplayer. I love playing PBEM because I'm busy and my schedule is unpredictable. This mode of play does not stop me from playing with anyone in the other side of the world. I will play RT for single player battles but since my computer is quite outdated, maybe WEGO is still the way to go.

[ July 30, 2007, 01:14 AM: Message edited by: jomni ]

[thewood]

Completely agree on POA2. It takes a real hardcore to master and enjoy POA2. I can take it in bite sized pieces, but it eventually drains me of enjoyment. Very like a wife.

[Bloodstar44]

Originally posted by jomni:

[QB] If anyone wants a true war game where you act as a commander in the real sense... then get these two games...

----

and third, still playing TOAW COW (I have TOAW 3 but don't need it yet, not good scenarios for it)...

[General Brock]

Janster Said

"Wow, thats like...very advanced..I suggest YOU go and play football instead..its RTS too"

Actually Football is turn based WEGO. Hockey is more RTS

[thelmia]

I'm OK with the RT change, because multiplayer took too long. I would like a better interface. It's a tiny bit too clunky.

I play CM to fight other people. The RT change makes that easier. It's still a sim. If you want to see what a modern RTS would look like, check out World in Conflict when it comes out. CMSF is much, much more cerebral than that.

The Tac AI on the old CM games was pretty good, and it allowed really large battles. The controlling AI (whatever it was called) was still not that bright. It's even dumber in SF. Again, that's not why I play. People are much more challenging.

I still have CMAK, and I imagine that I'll still be playing it. If you really hate SF, then just pretend it never came out. And that you spent the money on beer and strippers.

[Rastakyle]

Originally posted by General Brock:

Janster Said

"Wow, thats like...very advanced..I suggest YOU go and play football instead..its RTS too"

Actually Football is turn based WEGO. Hockey is more RTS

I don't think he meant American football if that's what you alluding to.

[Pandur]

after buying the game to be able to see the good and bad things all myself, AFTER i allready knew that there is no usefull multiplayer component for me, i still hope that its somehow doable.

strange thing is, i think the wego thingy gets a bit talked away somehow. there is the rumble about PBEM filesize and all we officially hear is that everyone knew that it will be like that. now, i never cared about PBEM, i played no single PBEM in 3-4 years playing CMBB/AK, and i never read in this forums that there "will be no wego in multiplayer".

also the game is advisering itself with WEGO mode but there is no real we go, other than the single player one.

yesterday i played my first battle in CMSF and it was the first campain battle(i had played the demo befor).

i took me about 6 houers for 1 houer real time, i saw so much little actions, thought about plans, did all the cool, slow, carefull stuff and was rewarded with a victory for that. i had 14 WIA(no KIA) and 110 man OK in elite mode. thats all, nothing else lost.

NOW i think about the same battle in REAL TIME. i need to press 6 houers into 1...how the hell should this be fun!?

why does evryone thinks the guys wich LOVE wego will "surely" like realtime "if they try hard enough". maybe we tryied it allready(this and other games), thats why we dont like it.

i mean the series was build on wego, now the RTS comes in and wego players gets booted. your LAN´s/cables arent powerfulll enough, you cant upload aveage 5mb every turn...but we do PBEM with the same filesizes!?

oh well, anyhow i BOUGHT the game to spend money so we eventually get WEGO tcp/ip with a patch or more realistic, with a new CM:$$ module.

i cant do more as coustomer, say what i want(wich is luckilie what many others what too), and give out money to make that "vote" stronger and allocate a little bit of the needed money for this task. that is what i did.

[Thunderbird]

Originally posted by average:

Seriously, a good plan is one that you can execute. This micromanagement of individual sections is nonsense as well.

If you can't make your plan work issuing point and click commands, then is it really a good command ?

You can't be everywhere at once, and half the fun is to work with the limits of your command structure.

I would agree if you were working within the limits of your command structure, but your not! In RT you are working within the limits of your ability to manipulate the interface.

[Steiner14]

rlg85,

And yes, this has WEGO in some form, but the tacAI currently isn't nearly as good and units need more babysitting, something you cant do while you dont have control of your units for a minute.

Ok, this can be overcome in RT (if you are fast enough), but i think it is also very annoying in RT, if the drivers of vehicles are plain blind, deaf and dumb.

Who tells you, that the TacAI will not be improved? Steve already mentioned, it is quite high on their list.

[Pandur]

EXELLENT!

I would agree if you were working within the limits of your command structure, but your not! In RT you are working within the limits of your ability to manipulate the interface.

now i feel why i dont like RT. i have no control when compared to TB. if i want control i need to play "another game"(i still speak about CM:SF, but in RT ) than iam playing now.

NOW for example give me, as player wich hates RT a magic helmet wich translates my thinking into commands for the machine. RT play without stress. just watching and thinking and commanding.

that would be AWSOME and i would skip WEGO in seconds, but since there isnt such an device i need wego to have time to put all my thinking and planing into the game, much time, and this time i find in command phases.

WEGO CANT GO away for multiplayer

[Steiner14]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Here it is officially from us, if it makes Janster feel any better...

CM:SF can not support very large formations of troops under the command of someone in RealTime. That's obvious to anybody with 1/2 a brain, so I'm not sure why you think this is a relavent thing to point out. Playing a tactical WeGO battle with a division's worth of troops down to Teams isn't practical either, so does that mean WeGo is worthless? Obviously not, so again... I don't understand the point you are trying to make.

CMx2 in RealTime will only become capable of commanding forces in battalion sized engagements when we introduce CoPlay (many people playing on one side).

Has nobody read that yet?!

:cool: :cool: :cool:

That's still quite a ways off, but we have to start somewhere and we've already started.

:cool: :cool: :cool:

Personally, I never play WeGo (as I've said many times before). It will remain an equal partner in CMx2 for the life of the game engine, so don't worry about that.

What else could we want?

Perfect!

[Ronn]

Personally, I never play WeGo (as I've said many times before)

Sorry, but

I can't believe this ...

What makes someone with this attitude here in the Battlefront forum?

There are so many games out there (C&C Tiberium wars, Empire Earth, Company of Heroes, Generals ...), with much better interfaces for click-kings and fast-scroll-clickers, which he instead can play.

RT games are won by gamers whith the fastest clickrate.

I choose BATTLEFRONT and their games, because you have time to think and plan and anlalyse, because BATTLEFRONT are the WEGO-experts. And I expect, we get a better WEGO with better WEGO-tools. Airborne Assault for example has in its 3rd edition

3 (THREE !) LOS-tools!

I played only one game in RT. The only experience I have, was time pressure.

Completely redundant time pressure. NEVER again ...

Shure I can give orders in SP if I press Escape.

But that is so comfortably like WEGO in the 18th century.

One tip from me: go back to the roots! You are THE spezialists in WEGO, not in RT. Think in USABILITY for your customer, what tools are realy needed

(perfect hulldown order, better 3D-Terrain analysis tools, free LOS-Tools, exchangeable replays of the whole game for common learning,

camera savepoints ...,)

Don't get me wrong: I love CM:SF!

But with the noticeably RT-trend, I have fear, that you get lost in a market, you are only one under many others.

Greetings

Ronn

Sorry for my english - its not the best

[Janster]

We used to be 4 people playing, and each one controlled a set of units for a certain amount of points.

Then we duked it out for a weekend over a campaign map we made.

It was truly glorious, and probably some of the most fun I've had behind this screen.

I don't mind RTS, but I just had a test of World In Conflit, and it was really disturbing to play.

(ie get inf to target then find you've been carpedbombed/nuked/heavy arty to death in seconds, buy new doods repeat ad nauseam)

As for my harsh tone, some ouf us took a buttload of flak from people with arguments that made no sense for me, and I guess I fell down to their level fast, and I apologize for that.

However the great moments that was CM was something I Hoped to continue here, but RTS is a whole diffrent ballgame, and obviously if the scale is going down from brigade battles to downright Company of Heroes scale, its clear this version of Combat Mission appeals to a whole new range of people I guess.

So for the ones left behind, we have to remain with our old CM's and our chesslike behaviour of wanting to be able to use tactics over clickfest strategies.

One thing I like though, CO-PLAY sounds really kick ass, and would seriously help this game.

In the end, we shall see where this title goes, I have it, but for now it will remain shelfware until a day it's patched to the point where I can play it without too much frustration.

Janster

[ July 30, 2007, 07:28 AM: Message edited by: Janster ]

[Becket]

Originally posted by Ronn:

I played only one game in RT. The only experience I have, was time pressure.

Were you playing on Elite difficulty or 2 player? Otherwise, there should have been no time pressure due to the pause function. I really would like to see a "Veteran Plus" difficulty level that brings in all of the realism settings, but keeps the ability to give orders during a pause. Even better would be an option to adjust each of the difficulty/realism items independently.

Another item on my wishlist would be an option to allow both players in a two player game to agree for automatic pauses every [X] seconds/minutes, where X is a setting that must be agreed upon by the players. Steve has pointed out why the normal pause feature won't work in RT, but I wonder whether this workaround would remove the technical impediment. If the game automatically just paused every minute to allow the players to enter orders, look around, catch their breaths, etc., and only restarted when each player canceled the pause, then (IMO at least) you have essentially simulated WE-GO in real time mode.

Just some thoughts. I don't code and know nothing about how hard these things are. Maybe they are impossible; maybe not.

I know nothing about coding and thus nothing about how hard this is,

[tinjaw]

Originally posted by Tinjaw:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Chelco:

Ey Tinjaw!

You have been around wargaming for more than I can remember and I'm a bit surprised to read about your reservations with CMSF.

Do you mean this game CMSF has been toned down in realism to cater the RTS crowd? Or you miss some commands from the old CMx1 engine?

I don't want to sound like a fanboy, but I'm having a great time with real time and I'm just interested in your feedback. Regretably (understandably too), you are not willing to push forward in this thread. So PM or e-mail me if you feel like.

FWIW, the first pages of the manual have a section entitled "Unlearning Combat Mission".

Chelco, I would love to continue the conversation with you, or anybody for that matter, that doesn't resort to flames. My email address is the same as it has been since 1996 chaim@chaim.com.

I am working at the US Army Command and General Staff College as a Simulation Analyst these days. I am at OneSAF training this week so I am out of the office, so I may only get back to you in the evenings until next week.

And again, the offer to chat via email is open to anybody. I am sorry it can't continue in an open forum. Put CM:SF in the subject so it gets through my spam filters.

[To InvaderCanuck: That is not the behavior I am experiencing. I am uploading a screen capture movie to show you what I am seeing if you are interested. Email or PM me if you wish to have the URL.] </font>

[Phoenix]

I really would like to see a "Veteran Plus" difficulty level that brings in all of the realism settings, but keeps the ability to give orders during a pause.

Steve has stated that the pause feature WILL be added to the Elite difficulty level. Im guessing in the next patch.

[Becket]

Originally posted by Phoenix:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I really would like to see a "Veteran Plus" difficulty level that brings in all of the realism settings, but keeps the ability to give orders during a pause.

Steve has stated that the pause feature WILL be added to the Elite difficulty level. Im guessing in the next patch. </font>