Weapons review from Iraq veteran

[akd]

Originally posted by Bigduke6:

John,

My point is of course that in the critical phase of the combined arms firefight - the battle for fire superiority if you will - personal infantry weapons supress at best, and often do nothing useful. In this aspect of the battle, where the intense killing is taking place, and the battle for fire superiority is on, the infantry's main function is to find targets for things that really can kill; be it an MG or a Spectre gunship.

If the enemy is suppressed, he is no longer a target for the infantry machine gun. Spectre, in that it functions largely as a direct extenstion of the infantryman (the Spectre is seldom, if ever, deployed to hunt on its own), doesn't exactly fit in the general, timeless view your are expounding of the relationship between infantry and supporting weapons. In such a case, the infantryman kills with an IR designator instead of a rifle. Suppresion may play no role at all in such an event.

[shlitzzlipzz@hotmail.com]

here's an example how stupid all this 'legality' of bullets is..

1. I design a bullet that fragments on impact and an internal cavity of the bullet has a dose of instantly reacting chemicals that render the victem pain-free and unconscious. If he dies, he dies pain-free. If he lives, he will be easily handled and won't fight back also.

2. I design an insidious tracer element that burns at an extremely hot temperature. As the bullet fragments, it fills the cavity inside the person with burning particles. The pain is not bearable and will even fill the lungs with caustic smoke.

1. might be illegal yet 2. is not.

[shlitzzlipzz@hotmail.com]

Originally posted by akd:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by shlitzzlipzz@hotmail.com:

Next time I shoot a dog, I am going to bedazzle it with flashing lights while I wear my space-hamster goggles with filters that allow me sneak up on the canine.

I will mount a white screen in front of the dog to measure the actual 'pink-misting' quotient. A diaper will be installed on the dog this time (my living room rug still smells).

Shut up. You watch too many movies and are making us dumb by proximity. </font>

[Cipher]

I'm a active duty Scout and I just came back from 12 months at Camp Junction City, which is right across the Euphrates river from downtown Ar Ramadi. I have been to Blue Diamond several times. The drive is...interesting.

Alot of what this Marine's Father has said is true and some of it I would have to disagree with, some of the tale is probably lost in the telling and some of it is probably just a difference of opinion. Some of it is dead on, especially about the IEDs. I got a laugh from the part about the shower, thats so true.

* The SAPI plates are much heavier than that, but you really do get used to carrying them around. Though running in them takes longer to get used too. The heat is much less than 120 normally because of the Euphrates river running alongside Ar Ramadi, although it still sucks. The heat is much more unbearable in Kuwait, where it gets to 140 at times. Until I got there, I didnt think it got that hot anywhere but the sun.

As far as weapon systems go...

* I carried an M16A2 for 4 months and an M4 the rest of the tour and only experienced the occasional double-feed. The 5.56 is a little underpowered when measured shot to shot against the 7.62, but I never fired just one at an insurgent anyways. More is better. :cool: Overall, very reliable weapons that WILL take down a haji. You really have to maintain your arms there, its life or death. The rail system being used on both weapons allows for a great diversity of attachments. I love my M4, though haji sure didn't.

* The M-249 SAW (Belt-fed)is an excellent weapon and in MANY's opinion is far more reliable and portable than the M-240B. It's the 240 that jams/misfires much more often. The SAW applies an extremely "liberal" application of that 5.56 round that people like to bash on so often. The SAW fires like two M16A1s on full auto. Your not going to chew down one of haji's houses with the 240 anyways, both are used in much the same mission. The debate over which is better goes on. The same debate rages about the Mark 19 semi-automatic grenade launcher. I don't like it because it jams too much for me and I don't care who says it doesn't. You can't argue with dozens of aimed grenades though, so I leave that to the guys who like it most.

* Ma Deuce is my baby. The M2 .50cal has been around since WWII and looks to be around well into the future. Reliable, sturdy, and deadly, the .50cal is what most of my kills were made with. When the round enters the body cavity, it creates a hydrostatic shockwave that ruptures organs and induces shock instantly. Now THIS baby will shoot through haji's house. I've seen it go from the hood through the trunk and everything between using armor piercing incendiary rounds. Car bomb that haji!

* We did several missions with the SEAL teams and they DO love the HK, especially with the silencer on. Great for those pesky dogs that like to give away your sniper position.

The insurgents DO still attack at night and during sandstorms. They also attack during the day in Ramadi. Everyday Ramadi is a full blown warzone. In Ramadi and on the outskirts especially, they like to set up IEDs (primary and secondary devices) and sometimes cover them with ambush forces that use heavy machineguns and RPGs. They also have limited night vision equipment and yes, even some body armor (though not as good). Honestly, the AK in all its variants is very much hindered there by unreliable ammunition. I fired more than a few captured AKs and the magazines all had at least 2 misfires. Plus haji shoots like **** too. Though sometimes all you need is to put alot rounds downrange. Such is war.

IEDs: EOD is awesome. We completed over 1000 missions in the year we were there and at least half of those were EOD escort missions. These guys are amazing soldiers, even if they are Marines (just kidding). Another group of unsung heroes of the war are the robots used to detonate IEDs all over the country several times a day, EVERY day. Many a Johnny 5 has passed into toaster heaven because haji wanted to take at least something out with his little homemade device. The enemy use wire and cell phone detonated IEDs and even use TV remote stations, though I don't know how he expected that one to work, I can't get my to transmit across the living room.

Another source of arms/fighters is Jordan. Many of the fighters in Ramadi are foriegn fighters from Syria/Iran. There has even been a female merc sniper from North Korea attacking our forces in the area. During the latest voting process, there was only fighting there. I've seen where the insurgents have executed 14-16 year old children for being questioned by us. The civilians are sick of it. The place is the deadliest city in the world where enemies of the West go to hunt. I feel anger too when we hear people say we are losing the war and should just leave. I have lost good friends there and I dont want to see it be for nothing. We are almost there and every time somebody in the press says that, they encourage the insurgents to fight harder, just trying to cause a few more casualties and they think we will run away. We wont, we just fight harder and they do most of the dying.

Well, thats my experiences there, some of them anyways. I hope you don't take it as an attack on your friend or his father because it sincerely isn't M1.

Cipher out.

[Cipher]

Originally posted by shlitzzlipzz@hotmail.com:

here's an example how stupid all this 'legality' of bullets is..

1. I design a bullet that fragments on impact and an internal cavity of the bullet has a dose of instantly reacting chemicals that render the victem pain-free and unconscious. If he dies, he dies pain-free. If he lives, he will be easily handled and won't fight back also.

2. I design an insidious tracer element that burns at an extremely hot temperature. As the bullet fragments, it fills the cavity inside the person with burning particles. The pain is not bearable and will even fill the lungs with caustic smoke.

1. might be illegal yet 2. is not.

Wouldn't that be great, if the Geniva Convention didn't tie our hands with the use of such ammunition. Personally, I say we sleep gas the whole city and then house to house search for the guys lying next to their weapons and IEDs but the LT wouldn't buy it.

[Cipher]

Originally posted by sgtgoody (esq):

Actually the intent when you engage the enemy is to render him unable to prevent your manuevers. There is no doctrine about killing or wounding or scaring or tickling.

Smaller rounds are not only lighter and can be carried in greater quantity but they can be fired faster and more accurately. Soldiers are trained to aim center mass, which will normally dissable anyone you hit.

There are stories of people being hit nearly everywhere with everything and surviving. These incidents and incidents that people claim to hear get repeated and repeated until they become bigger than life. One of the Rangers in Somalia took an RPG through his body but lived for several hours, does that mean the RPG isn't effective. The Rangers also talk about a Somali who was on the recieving end of several bursts from an M60 and still left the battle under his own power.

Sometimes people are just hard to kill.

I agree, I've seen a haji go down from 2 shots from an M16A4 and then saw another get his arm blown off by a .50cal and evaded us. The insurgents and the Iraqi people in general are a sturdy bunch, with or without cocaine in their systems.

[shlitzzlipzz@hotmail.com]

Interesting info, Did you use 3 round bursts often? ever?

When entering buildings, is it no quarter?

[Battlefront.com]

Let's keep this civil or it gets padlocked.

shlitzzlipzz@hotmail.com has been banned. We always give new posters the benefit of the doubt, but I think the time has come to conclude this is one of our previous posters ducking the ban. Borderline behavior at any rate.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Cipher, welcome! Thanks for chipping in from the front (belated thanks to Nerd King as well). As has been discussed, that "letter" is most likely a fake, even though some of the things in it are most certainly true. The best fakes are the ones that are mostly correct, after all.

As an aside, I think many people doubt we can ultimately win the war with the current strategy. This is not the same as questioning if we can win at all, nor does it reflect upon the soldiers doing all the hard work. It just might be that keeping Iraq a solid state is impossible. The parallels between Iraq and Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union are quite strong. Heard a good talk yesterday by a guy (former ambassador to Croatia I think) who was trying to sort out the mess in Croatia in 1991 onwards and is now advising the Kurds. Iraq has only been held together through fear and totalitarian rule, just as Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union. His conclusion, from within the halls of the political elements, is that Iraq can be kept whole and peaceful, but not through democratic means. Only totalitarian rule. If they are allowed to go their separate ways, things will be better overall. Eventually the states might group themselves together, but not now.

Anyhoo... just remember that everybody wants things to work out for the better in Iraq, except for the dozens of different groups fighting progress in Iraq itself (or by proxy). It's just that there is no one way to do things and therefore discussion of the options is unavoidable. Kinda like sandboxing an assault plan. People just want you guys home and Iraq better off than when we found it. Don't confuse intraspection with defeatism since there is much more of the former than the latter.

Steve

[ December 07, 2005, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: Battlefront.com ]

[John Kettler]

The AK-74 fires a bullet with wounding properties much like the superseded early M-16 ammo. The mujahedeen called it the "poison bullet" because of the terrible wounds it inflicted, but the way it did so was by having a lead core inside the jacket slide forward into a void in the nose of the bullet on impact, shifting the CG and causing the bullet to tumble inside the body. It was tremendously effective against troops sans body armor, but being a light round, naturally lacked the Ak-47's ability to penetrate cover. Presumably, it wouldn't work well against troops in decent body armor.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Bigduke6]

Cipher,

Welcome and thanks for the detailed, informative post. The forum is richer for guys like you sharing their personal impressions.

Interesting note about the female North Korean sniper. I wonder how solid the intelligence is behind that, though.The reason I ask is that in Chechnya, the story of the deadly female sniper has been present among Russian troops for more than a decade now, and for practical purposes nobody ever sees on for real.

The general opinion of the anti-Chechnya war people is that either the Russian troops or the Russian propaganda machine are inventing the existance of a team of deadly female snipers, so as to avoid their real opponents - the Chechen men - may actually have excellent shots among them. According to Russian army lore the women are always young, attractive, and frequently make friends with junior Russian enlisted before shooting them at range once the Russian soldier has his guard down. But somehow, no one ever comes up with the corpse of a female sniper.

What you wrote was in general really solid, but it is striking (to me anyway) how U.S. intell is reporting a North Korean sniper mama. Just my two cents.

Steve,

From what I can tell the standard small arm in Chechnya is the AK-74. This is not to say a certain small portion of troops down prefers the older Kalashnikov just because different is better, or to deny there have been reports about some troopies wanting AK-47, but from what I can tell the AK-74 is pretty much generally accepted. Spetsnaz, main line, militia, insurgents, pretty much every one.

For instance, one of the indicators the people in the Nalchik attacks were amateur civilians rather than proper Chechen insurgents was that most of the attackers were carrying AK-47. That particular conclusion is gleaned from Russian media so take it with a grain of salt, but it seems to be a fact nonetheless.

Certainly for practical purposes all the Russian troops I've seen down in Chechnya are armed with AK-74; although that's not conclusive, as I'm getting that conclusion through a thick filter of dog and pony shows organized by the Russian army.

Still, in Afghanistan, where things were a lot more dangerous and firefights a lot more probable, AK-74 was THE weapon, period. Veterans I've talked to almost unanimously say the main great thing about the weapon was more bullets for the same weight humped.

I think the general impression I can speak for the Russian army the general is that both AK-47 and AK-74 are Kalashnikov products, and that is such a positive recommendation that quibbling about round size is just marginal. You want to blast something, get a PPSh MG or an AGS, I think would be the average opinion.

[Wisbech_lad]

Ugh. Call me a bleeding heart liberal, and Cipher, no disrespect, it is obviously just a casual slang word the way you use it - but haji?

My wife's family are muslim, my parents-in-law are haji. It is a term of respect - akin to "sir" or "doctor" and it just sticks in the throat a bit that that is what you guys have nick-named the jihadi/ insurgent mob.

I know nicknames for the enemy are par for the course (jerry/ kraut/ nip/ gook) but for a conflict that probably needs some element of hearts and minds - haji isn't a great one to pick. Sand nigger/ rag head / towel head would be less offensive to muslims who are not insurgents, IMHO!

[lucero1148]

Besides Hadji/Haji is a term for those devout Muslims who've made the pilgrimage to Mecca.

[Wisbech_lad]

Yep, which both of my parents-in-law have done, which is why they get the honourific title of hadji. Most of my staff are muslim too, about 25% have done the hajj. It used to be that you put it on your business card (like degrees in some cultures) but that has now reduced - seen as boasting about something that is meant to be personal

Anyway, some interesting stuff here guys, keep it coming!

[Nidan1]

Originally posted by Wisbech_lad:

I know nicknames for the enemy are par for the course (jerry/ kraut/ nip/ gook) but for a conflict that probably needs some element of hearts and minds - haji isn't a great one to pick. Sand nigger/ rag head / towel head would be less offensive to muslims who are not insurgents, IMHO!

Listen to what you are saying...can you imagine a white American soldier using the term "sand nigger", when half of his comrades are probably black?

Maybe if good people of the Islamic faith got more offended by seeing their brothers and sisters and others blown to bits by people who just want to kill for the glory of it, we could stop all this killing and then Americans could go back home. Then they could raise their own families rather than having to kill strangers half way around the world.

[ December 08, 2005, 04:10 AM: Message edited by: Nidan1 ]

[Colin]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

The AK-74 fires a bullet with wounding properties much like the superseded early M-16 ammo. The mujahedeen called it the "poison bullet" because of the terrible wounds it inflicted, but the way it did so was by having a lead core inside the jacket slide forward into a void in the nose of the bullet on impact, shifting the CG and causing the bullet to tumble inside the body. It was tremendously effective against troops sans body armor, but being a light round, naturally lacked the Ak-47's ability to penetrate cover. Presumably, it wouldn't work well against troops in decent body armor.

Regards,

John Kettler

Hey John,

I know better then to test your grogdom but isn't that just the opposite of what was being discussed? The 7.62x39mm round @ low velocity has better CQB stopping power then the faster 5.45mm round. Now perhaps the 5.45 round is inferior to the 5.56 round that the early M16's used.

The other issue is that there are 2 major models of the common Russian rounds. The 47 round comes in the 57-N-231S design but also the 7N23AP round that has much better body armour penetration. Similarly, the 7N6 5.45mm round is also available with an AP core (7N22 AP). These variations make it hard to know what is happening. Maybe the AP core was actually helping against soft targets because it would tumble as you say. Impossible to know which they were using.

If I could pick for CQB I suppose I'd want a 7.62mm round but the AP core or a standard 5.45mm round. The 5.45mm AP round would probably not have the 'stopping power' (knock you on your ass fast) for CQB.

Just more extremely bland numbers to soak into everyone's brain before Steve releases the 'stealth demo' that we're all waiting for.

Also,

re: the AN-94. Right now it's basically seen as an elite AK. Spetsnaz,SOBR,OMON and other upper echelon units are using them. I'd heard that the Syrians fielded a decent special forces and might have a better rifle then the masses.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Nidan1:

Maybe if good people of the Islamic faith got more offended by seeing their brothers and sisters and others blown to bits by people who just want to kill for the glory of it, we could stop all this killing and then Americans could go back home. Then they could raise their own families rather than having to kill strangers half way around the world.

YEAH!!! Those ****ing Muslim sand niggas should all be tortured to death.

[Bigduke6]

Hi Mom!

[aka_tom_w]

Wow....

Lock coming any time now I guess

I think this thread just imploded

See my signature line for clarification...

-tom w

[Peter Cairns]

Just a passing note on the AK-47.

In actual fact almost all of the AK-47's people see today are actually AKM's. The main difference was a switch from a machined block in the original AK-47 in the 70's to one with a set of rails and a use of metal stampings which cut as I remember about half a kilo from the weapons weight, and also made it quicker and a fair bit cheaper to manufacture.

They haven't made AK-47's for about a quarter century, but the name just stuck. As far as I know most of the chinese and eastern block types available, are copis of AKM's too, not 47's.

Just to complicate things further, the AKMS is an AKM with a folding but so I suspect the plural of that would be AKMS's.

Peter.

[Splinty]

Just one comment on the role of infantry. If you take a close look at the way the U.S. Army is structured, all of it-to include armor-is set up to support the infantryman in one form or another. Simply put, because he's the guy who has to go dig the enemy out of his bunker/ fighting position/ building or whatever. This also applies in an even stronger way to the U.S. Marines-that's why a Marine is a rifleman first and a mechanic or cook or whatever second.

[Colin]

It saddens me to see people respond like this on the forum.

We are posting ontopic and then someone posts something blatantly offensive not ten posts after Steve tells us he banned someone for something the page before. Ban and move on please.

I miss the beta demo and gold demo days. There was still a post every 15 seconds so I could just stay here and refresh and never have to leave, just each post was so carefully crafted because no one wanted to offend another grog. Plus Fionn would just correct you anyway.

[aka_tom_w]

I miss those days

and that old forum as well.....

-tom w

[Peter Cairns]

I don't mind people arguing if it's a debate over an issue or if there is areal difference of oppinion, but being deliberately offensive or just inane really annoys me.

You put forward a reasoned arguement and some people just go off the deep end.

I am glad to see shlitzzlipzz@hotmail.com sent back to what ever planet he lives on because it sure wasn't the same one as us.

Peter.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Cipher:

* The M-249 SAW (Belt-fed)is an excellent weapon and in MANY's opinion is far more reliable and portable than the M-240B.

That a 13 pound LMG is more portable than a 25 pound GMPG is a matter of opinion? :confused: