shlitzzlipzz@hotmail.com

Interesting info, Did you use 3 round bursts often? ever? When entering buildings, is it no quarter?

Shut up. You watch too many movies and are making us dumb by proximity. </font>

here's an example how stupid all this 'legality' of bullets is.. 1. I design a bullet that fragments on impact and an internal cavity of the bullet has a dose of instantly reacting chemicals that render the victem pain-free and unconscious. If he dies, he dies pain-free. If he lives, he will be easily handled and won't fight back also. 2. I design an insidious tracer element that burns at an extremely hot temperature. As the bullet fragments, it fills the cavity inside the person with burning particles. The pain is not bearable and will even fill the lungs with caustic smoke. 1. might be illegal yet 2. is not.

Next time I shoot a dog, I am going to bedazzle it with flashing lights while I wear my space-hamster goggles with filters that allow me sneak up on the canine. I will mount a white screen in front of the dog to measure the actual 'pink-misting' quotient. A diaper will be installed on the dog this time (my living room rug still smells).

Was Gaylord a dog killer also?

Isn't killing someone an untreatable wound? The most humane thing IS either not shooting someone at ALL...or killing them outright. If they can be put down so they lose conciousness, then thats OK also. They won't suffer and will bleed out that way. And they won't shoot back. But asking a soldier to constantly risk his life by using ammo that entails he risk his own life is stupid. Medical advancements have made most injuries treatable. Its amazing how gangsta morons are saved everyday at hospitals. [ December 07, 2005, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: shlitzzlipzz@hotmail.com ]

I shot a Dog in Reno..just to watch him s**t Hey Nidan why don't you lighten up yourself? I don't want to hear about your relationships at all.

Yes that's a muzzle-loading projectile. Pretty neat really. It plows through tissue evidently. Perhaps Nerd is suffering from PTSD? While I find his input interesting, I could do without the uncontrollable pontifications. I think that room clearing operations would still benefit from special rounds. I think some sort of high velocity 'sabot' type solution might work. Being struck by many projectiles quickly seems to have some benefit in putting down BG's. To suppress soemone in a room that you are in is quite a feat. Keep them hiding under the desk?

I am talking about room clearing operations. 5-10 meters is the average size room. But I still am not sure what you are going on about. And now I do not care either.

No ****, at five meters or less a blind man could hit something on full auto. </font>

In room-to-room fighting US troops do not use 3 round bursts? Given the short range when doing this, I find it hard to believe that they would not use the 3 round burst. The actual 'climb' of the weapon (after targeting COM) might be beneficial. Ive fired the M16A1 on full auto (using controlled bursts) and at 5 meters or less, using non-shoulder firing techniques, its not hard to hit a man sized target. I notice most US troops in Iraq use a shoulder type stance though. Shotgun Round Pictured earlier: Its actually a muzzle loader sabot round but why not have something like that for a shotgun? Suppression in CQB? Its a fight to the death with no quarter given. Alternatives: Its probably impossible to assure 100% total incapacitation. I wonder if any of these might work... Blinding technology. Intense flashing device that is introduced into the room or worn. Special filters on attackers goggles allow them vision while denying the defenders. A timing technology would 'filter' the goggles (using active material that blocks light when charged). The net effect is that anyone in the room is effectively 'blinded' while the attackers are entering. The attackers can gain room situation advantage and liquidate the defenders or decide they are not a threat and move on or take hostages. The weapon could be preceded by a traditional flash-bang and the attacking troops could alternate either waiting using it (to let a badguy reveal himself by firing), sending in one man (system activates and the point man could signal the rest to wait or immediately enter..the goggles have a small pop-up message). When the attackers are actually shooting, its shooting ducks in a barrel. IF the enemy fires, he is doing it blind. He will have his vision denied and the best he could do is fire in a direction. Its 'sort-of' night vision introduced in the daytime.

These non-hollow point type rounds supposedly plow a great path of destruction. A good round for a semi-auto shotgun? The sharp edges at the frontal extremity of the Devel bullet (fin ogive and tip), upon impact with game, cause deep lacerations. The fluted curvatures between the fins then cause a simultaneous high-pressure radial flow of target mass out into the wound channel. The resultant bleeding and organ trauma from the enlarged fin lacerations is what causes game to go down and stay down when shot.

I wonder if a combo bullet can be made that acts like a sabot round? Its a specialized round that is very high velocity using a sub-caliber sabot round. Much like the tank round in principal, but with the difference that the sabots are meant to fly to the sides but are also projectiles themselves. At close ranges, they are still viable maimers/killers. This would be a specialized round for entering rooms during MOUT. The actual 'penetrator' is very high velocity projectile (4000 fps) and designed to break-up due to the shape of the body. Its major effect is to rapidly induce a shockwave in viscous tissue. As the steel-tipped lead-bodied penetrator enters the target, it easily pierces most body armor. But its soft rear shaft will destabilize the round and cause it to fragment within the body. A 3 round burst from this weapon will deliver 9 projectiles (6 sabots and 3 penetrators). All forming a cone of destruction. Against someone with no body armor, it will tear them apart.

I shot a dog once. feces flew out his ass.

Ive shot large animals through the lungs. I didn't take home movies though. I have noticed that I have never seen a lartge animal go strait down from using arrows (low velocity in comparison to bullets).

I would claim that aiming for center of mass is the ONLY way to shoot when entering a room. Given the short range, and the ability of the enemy to quickly change position (forcing a re-aiming), you must shoot to hit and rehit quickly. I have read some disparaging remarks about 3 round burst (I have only fired full auto and single shot M16A1). My understanding is that the three rounds come out quicker than a typical full auto weapon. If this is so, bullet groupings at 5 meters or less is tight?

I believe the temp-cavity IS soft tissue damage. As far as the lungs, have you ever had the wind knocked out of you playing football or such? It would be a hundred times worse with tissue/blood/etc spritzing out of your mouth and nose. If you do the math, and look at the pic posted earlier ragrding cavitation, the actual volume of displaced tissue from temp-cav is much larger than perm-cav. As far as water-armor, as a personal protection, its limited and can only hope to scrub some of the velocity. As a vehicle 'applique' armor, it could have self-sealing, an inner mesh (this reduces HEAT rounds also) and compartmentation so that it can be fully filled. Under explosive attack, it might reduce flash burns also.

If I were in Iraq, I would alternate the rounds in my M16A2 so that they were shooting a FMJ followed by a softer round. I would not give a damn about what anyone would do to me. Court Martial or such. If I had to be the first to enter a room, the first living target would get multiple 3 round bursts in them. If the M4 has a lower muzzle velocity, then I wouldn't use it. Do the combat shotguns have any high velocity flechette rounds for them?

Someone mentioned earlier that high velocity rounds striking water do not penetrate deeply. Since troops need great quantitys of water, having 'water-armor' around humvees and trucks would be worthwhile also.

I actually wonder if water or other viscous fluids might not be a viable 'static' body armor. If something, like thick bubble-wrap, could be handily field expedited such that it was filled with a fluid; it might make an acceptable 'armor' that would offer some protection from bullets. A vest made of aluminum that was covered by this 'fluid-matt' is what I picture. It is, of course, heavy and something that could be 'donned' while in a static position. It might offer some protection from white phos also? Not that I want to help the insurgents, but it just seems that bullets striking fluid undergo a tremendous 'energy-scrub'. Best they do this outside a body. The fluid in the bag could be antiseptic also. I do notice troops wearing sports type 'canteens' lately. These are just rubberized bags of course. They are worn on their backs (like bikers wear) but I wonder if any benefit could come from wearing it on the front outside the usual body armor.

So you do not want to see pictures?

I suppose the 'best' body armor 'insurgents' can have is one that scrubs enemy bullet velocity enough to reduce/cancel temporary-cavitation. That is, reduce the hit to a permanent cavitation. I suppose that crude body armor, and even hiding behind inner walls, might be effective. This way they can perhaps still fire a weapon's magazine out or get to a grenade pin. Since there will be no quarter, they will die fighting. If exploding bullet technology is 'illegal', I suppose that the 5.56mm does the next best thing. Unfortunately, the troops fighting in Iraq have run into a police scenario. And cops shoot to kill.

Its actually called temporary cavitation. As opposed to permanent cavitation. Its the rapid hydrostatic response of tissue to the energy of the bullet. I was using graphic laymen's terms. But what I described, the balooning of tissue (a baloon is a cavity, no?), impinging on vital organs (crushing the heart, pinching the spine, etc.) is correct. Its what drops animals like flys. Not sure what you think you are correcting? Many vets I served with (Vietnam War vets) described M16A1 5.56mm 'dropping' moving enemy (soldiers that were on their feet). They called them 'wet-sacks' because they went down immediately in a limp state under the effects of gravity. They were 'greased'. Many would lose large chunks of flesh or even limbs from hits that they said would physically move the enemy (like a punch). There was no clean permanent cavitation but rather violent teporary cavitation against tissue and catastrophic effects against bone. At extremely short ranges, you would fire full auto. Multiple hits by 5.56mm in rapid succesion seemed to increase the temporary cavitation effect (one 'balooning out' hitting another internally). The enemy was typically smaller than many other humans. When attempting a full blown assault, they often wrapped their arms and legs tightly. [ December 06, 2005, 06:25 AM: Message edited by: shlitzzlipzz@hotmail.com ]

Many people argue that knockdown power has more to do with high velocity than mass of projectile. The major physical property at work is the rapid expansion of internal tissue (balooning). This squeezes internal organs like the heart and pinches the spine and drops a large mammal. The fact that the animal has taken pain killers or psychotic mimicking drugs would not help. Anyone taking multiple hits through the chest by 5.56mm at close range would be incapacitated. Rapid 3 round bursts would be very effective in close quarters.

I seem to recall seeing it in the US Army 'wish-book' in the early 80s. It was touted as flying in a strait line and I believe was a squash head device that could allow walls to be breached. It would also have limited anti-vehicle capability.