A call for more variety in WW2 (part deux)

[John Kettler]

M1A1TankCommander,

How about captured ones?

http://strangevehicles.greyfalcon.us/ODDITIES.htm

Melnibone,

I'm confused! Judging from this post last year

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=012053#000002

I certainly understood them to be in, yet when I run a search, I get one post. Mine. Odd, for I distinctly recall being all excited about their inclusion in the game, yet I can't find anything on them in the manual or the Strategy Guide, at least, at this hour (3:52 a.m. PDT).

Regards,

John Kettler

[ March 18, 2008, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[Melnibone]

[M1A1TC]

John

I am 99.9% sure Aero-sani were not in CMBB. "Sani" means "sled/sleds", and is the same word for single or multiple.

They were used to transport weapons, supplies and soldiers of course

"With the beginning of the Great Patriotic War, all the aerosleds that existed in the country were mobilized into the Red Army. The designers developed new vehicles for operational use: transport-assault aerosleds NKL-16/41 and NKL-16/42, combat aerosled NKL-26 with armor plate and machine-gun mount, the heavy assault aerosled ASD-400, and also the RF-8-GAZ-98 aerosled." battlefield.ru

[ March 18, 2008, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: M1A1TankCommander ]

[c3k]

Not to drive this thread underground, but...

...what we need in WWII will be BASEMENTS. Without them, how will we model Stalingrad or Berlin? Interconnected Basements. Also we should think about tunnels and caves and sewers.

And how about scenario editor FORTIFIED building locations? That would represent defenders who had beefed up the structure and created loopholes and improved fields of fire.

Thanks,

Ken

[JohnO]

Dam and I said that I wouldn't agree with c3K on any subject and he goes and post this. I like the idea as well on the underground structures. Could be some interesting scenarios.

[Mord]

I think dead cows could be a pretty easy thing if they were done as flavor objects.

Mord.

[John Kettler]

M1A1TankCommander,

Right idea; wrong game. Aerosani are in TOW, not CMBB.

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=63;t=000086#000006

c3k,

I absolutely agree that we need basements.

Mord,

Do flavor objects have cover values?

Regards,

John Kettler

[M1A1TC]

John

Flavor objects have cover value

Regards,

M1A1TankCommander

[John Kettler]

M1A1TankCommander,

Good to know! Then Mord's idea would appear viable.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Pvt. Ryan]

Originally posted by Mord:

I think dead cows could be a pretty easy thing if they were done as flavor objects.

Mord.

That would open up a whole charcoal vs. propane debate.

[Dean F.]

I have to say that I am no motorcycle fanboy, but I gotta have horse cavalry! (And not just because I'm a Blackhorse veteran...) The SS fielded entire divisions of cavalry even late in the war, and the Soviets had cavalry CORPS. (I know, I know, the whole corps wasn't horse-mounted, so don't go there.)

Where they are important is in antipartisan scenarios. Wehrmacht used them thus extensively. On the other hand there were Soviet partisan cavalry units, too.

I get what you're saying about how they'd usually dismount off-map, but given the Polish history and the anti-partisan uses I think leaving them out would be an oversight. What would be really cool is if 1-in-4 men were left behind as horse-holders when they dismounted, too, so in dismounting you sort of lose 25% of your manpower.

Perhaps a later mod, at least? Please? If I have to grovel I'll do it.

Wow. Gotta agree on the basements and fortified buildings, if its possible. That would rock. I love those East Front urban nightmares.

[gibsonm]

Originally posted by Dean F.:

Perhaps a later mod, at least? Please? If I have to grovel I'll do it.

Well given that the first Second World War implementation will be Normandy ‘44, I’m guessing anything for early war or Ost Front is going to have to be in a later module.

So I think you’d be on the money with your statement (release date for such a module of course is a whole different ball game - just look at the gap between CM:SF and the yet to come out USMC module).

[abneo3sierra]

My great grandfather was an officer in the SS and passed down stories about the Polish cavalry charging panzer units...It would probably be historically accurate, but not sure what would be gained as the person stuck with them would usually have a tremendous disadvantage. In the cmx2 engine here, where scale is 1person=1person It seems it would heavily clutter up the screen unless the maps became quite a lot larger, which turns into a downwards spiral that is probably the main reason for not including them.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by abneo3sierra:

My great grandfather was an officer in the SS and passed down stories about the Polish cavalry charging panzer units...It would probably be historically accurate,

No, it wouldn't. It never happened.

The Battle of Krojanty on 1 September fostered a long-standing myth; that Polish cavalry, hide-bound to old traditions, made desperate and futile charges against German armour while on horseback and using their ancient weapons. No such attacks ever took place during the entire campaign. One group of the 18. Pułk Ułanów Pomorskich (18th Pomeranian Uhlans Regiment) did launch a mounted attack against dismounted elements of Infanterie Regiment 76 (76th Infantry Regiment). After their successful charge, they retreated in the face of automatic weapons fire from German armoured personnel carriers leaving behind several dead men and horses. The next day, Axis war correspondents visited the battlefield and Italian journalists filed stories of Polish cavalrymen charging tanks with edged weapons, creating a propaganda myth that was widely perpetuated in popular culture.

[abneo3sierra]

I would probably take the word of eyewitnesses over an unnamed book. However, be that as it may, that is why I said "probably be.." because I do always leave room for doubt.

I have seen an awful lot of false information on every military campaign in history, so it definitely could have been just one of "those stories" as well, but then again, history is often written by the victor, and books contradicting it could also be the same.

As an aside, the people who usually insist that the charge never happened, usually say that it was the German propaganda putting down the Poles...I myself would never propagandize what must have, if it had happened, taken enormous courage..not a trait you want to advertise about your enemy...so I am not sure what the axis purpose for saying it would have been.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by abneo3sierra:

[QB] I would probably take the word of eyewitnesses over an unnamed book.

80 year old SS veterans make notoriously poor eyewitnesses to anything, even if blood relatives. Given the relative unimportance of the SS-Verfügungstruppe (they weren't Waffen until after Poland), I wouldn't imagine there were many direct witnesses to Polish cavalry attacks among their ranks - even if they did occur against tanks. Which they didn't.

And no, I'm not calling your relatives liars.

I have seen an awful lot of false information on every military campaign in history, so it definitely could have been just one of "those stories" as well, but then again, history is often written by the victor

Yeah, the Waffen-SS absolutely never got a chance to tell its side of the story because no one was willing to buy any books about them, in German or English, and no one showed any interest in hearing their side of things.

Ever heard of J.J. Fedorowicz?

The poor dears. Tell me you can swing a dead cat at the local military bookshop and not hit a book worshiping the SS.

As an aside, the people who usually insist that the charge never happened, usually say that it was the German propaganda putting down the Poles...I myself would never propagandize what must have, if it had happened, taken enormous courage..not a trait you want to advertise about your enemy...so I am not sure what the axis purpose for saying it would have been.

The purpose for advertising Polish tactical ineptness should be obvious. The Germans were unprepared for war and the Polish campaign was a much nearer-run thing than most since 1945 realize. The German Army certainly didn't want to invade Poland, and had enormous deficiencies in transport, ammunition, reinforcements, etc. Their only saving grace was that the Poles were so horribly deployed, so greatly outnumbered in places, and the Russians so willing to stab them in the back. To be able to advertise them as brave but foolhardy was a great boon - much better than saying "wow, we sure got lucky. Four more weeks of campaigning and we would have been out of bullets, our trucks would have stopped running, and all those officers we created going from 100,000 men in 1933 to several million men just 6 years later, well - some of them aren't as bright as we had hoped they would be."

After the debacle in France in 1940, English-speaking historians usually explained it away by inventing something called "Blitzkrieg" and saying the Germans had started doing it in Poland. But really, it was just an excuse for their own pathetic military organization and inability to maintain the very real military competence they had striven so hard to achieve by mid-1917. Just about everything the Germans were doing in 1939 at the tactical level, the British Army had been doing in 1918. The Germans were adept at incorporating it into their traditional methods of warfare - the encirclement and the annihilation battle. Voila - contemporary newspapers and then postwar historians had a convenient hook to hang the embarrassing Allied defeats on.

So, in fact, the losers wrote the history on that one.

[ March 19, 2008, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Besides agreeing with the points Dorosh made, I wouldn't put the Poles among the victors of WW2. I reckon they were the biggest losers of all.

[imported_mike_the_wino2]

Originally posted by Pvt. Ryan:

That would open up a whole charcoal vs. propane debate.

What is there to debate?

Only fags and Canadians use propane. :mad: :mad:

[Molotov Cocktail]

Also the Polish cavalry charge myth was strenghened by famous Polish movie director Andrzej Wajda in Polish movie Lotna.

IMDB:Lotna (1959)

In this movie there is cavalry charge against German tanks. Director was critized for this

Good article about films and the myth of Polish cavalry charge

Lotna - A film by Andrzej Wajda: The Mythology of Romanticism in the Context of War

This myth was even so strong, that particular Italian news about cavalry charge was quoted in my Finnish history book (in elementary or high school book) as an example of outdateness of Polish Army against Blitzkrieg (in Finnish salamasota) machinery of Nazi Germany.

And my history teacher in elementary school mentioned the Polish cavalry. When he talked about start of World War II and German invasion of Poland

About Lotna (1959) movie by Andrzej Wajda from Wikipedia

Charge at Krojanty September 1. 1939 Poland from Wikipedia

[ March 19, 2008, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Molotov Cocktail ]

[abneo3sierra]

M Dorosh..

Mostly I can see your point. One major point however is the encirclement war was a Prussian tactic as far back as Frederick the Great. So, no, the Germans did not invent it suddenly in 1939..they had perfected it over a century before.

As I said, I definitely take things with a grain of salt, however, it seems extremely narrow minded to not take the other side with the same grain of salt...or maybe, give them their own separate grain And it is quite possible that it was propaganda...if so, in my eyes, still a bad choice..I would not want my own soldiers to be thinking they are against foes that are incredibly courageous.

Elmar..in a way, your point is correct. But technically Poland was on the victorious side, and actually inherited a sizable chunk of territory that was German before the war.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by abneo3sierra:

One major point however is the encirclement war was a Prussian tactic as far back as Frederick the Great. So, no, the Germans did not invent it suddenly in 1939..they had perfected it over a century before.

Yes, you are exactly right, and they were still using it successfully in 1939, up to 1942 or so. The fact they were using tanks, artillery and dive bombers muddled a lot of thinking and postwar apologists assumed that the tanks were what was making the Germans win such astonishing victories. They helped, no doubt, but their victories had just as much to do with fragile enemies and their successful use of the time-tested strategies you accurately describe as anything else.

And it is quite possible that it was propaganda...if so, in my eyes, still a bad choice..I would not want my own soldiers to be thinking they are against foes that are incredibly courageous.

I'm not disagreeing with your opinion, but I think the facts in evidence do little to suggest that your opinion has basis in fact. There is little evidence any such charges existed; on the contrary, inflated newspaper reports - and some excellent info on films posted above - suggest where the myths started and grew.

Then again, why not let your men know the enemy is good? Eisenhower did before D-Day. Listen to his famous speech broadcast before June 6th. "Your task will not be an easy one. Your enemy is well trained, well equipped and battle hardened. He will fight savagely." Why lie to your men? It can only come back to bite you on the ass.

Text here:

http://www.kansasheritage.org/abilene/ikespeech.html

He was also recorded reading it, and there are sound files on the internet of the speech.

Elmar..in a way, your point is correct. But technically Poland was on the victorious side, and actually inherited a sizable chunk of territory that was German before the war.

Per capita, Poland lost more of its population killed than any other country. The losses were devastating, made all the more sad, if that is possible, by the fact many of those losses were cold blooded murder - mass shootings (by both the Russians and the Germans) and concentration camps in the main. The total according to Wikipedia was 16% of the 1939 population. One in six people alive in Poland in 1939 were dead six years later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

[ March 19, 2008, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[SlapHappy]

The horseback charge against armor myth is one of those that hangs around as firmly as the Battle of Prokhorova description myths......

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by SlapHappy:

The horseback charge against armor myth is one of those that hangs around as firmly as the Battle of Prokhorova description myths......

Also propagated by SS veterans with a keen eye for history.

Not that the Russians did a much better job in their own reporting...

[abneo3sierra]

M Dorosh, good sourcing.

Molotov cocktail- The director being "criticized" for the movie actually stresses my point that acceptable history is taught by the victors. I am quite certain even that were my own CO to read my last post it would be deemed not p.c. enough for the Army. Which brings me to my last statement on the matter..

I meant no disrespect to Poland, simply was stating a fact that technically they were on the victorious side in the end.

Thanks

[SlapHappy]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SlapHappy:

The horseback charge against armor myth is one of those that hangs around as firmly as the Battle of Prokhorova description myths......

Also propagated by SS veterans with a keen eye for history.

Not that the Russians did a much better job in their own reporting... </font>