Allied tank accuracy stinks plus more :)

[Janster]

Just played a game and again the allied tanks doesnt seem to hit anything, particularly the low profile hetzers, who are bought in high numbers by my opponent.

I am curious, is the point value for hetzers and other german tanks correct?, I belive they dont have taken into account the general suckyness of allied tanks, like for example the Challenger tank, which looks good, have nice stats, but is useless on the field of battle.

So basically im buyin tanks for the same cost as german tanks, and getting far less..this feels wrong.

I know the german tanks had better optics, but this should be included in the price right?

A few more gripes, played a lot of lan games, but the savegames keep buggin forcing ut to go hotseat from time to time, any clues?

And third, I dont understand why the coolest part of CM, namly the operations are the least supported and almost feels like something thrown in at last ditch.

They ROCK and should be the future.

For example, 4 computers should be able to play, say where each control a portion of the forces, we've had a few 2v2 matches, eng-amr vs axis heer and axis waffen ss, great fun.

Hope they stop being so narrow sightet in the future, oh and fix the horrid deployedment lines in operations, I mean even close combat was a LOT better there(may it rest in peace).

Otherwise great game, havent had this much fun in years.

With regards

Janster

[imported_Hiram Sedai]

*Hiram grabs a bowl of popcorn and gets ready for the show.*

[Ex Bellator]

*Pays extra buck for 'executive' seat in front of Hiram and wears extra large hat*

[Hamstersss]

Now guys, this is a serious issue that BTS refuses to even address. Keep in mind, Janster that German optics are meticulously modeled and their production cost versus shoddy American Cola models was practically equal.

To ask that a Hetzer, with it's integrated, double-parabola rangefinder be made more expensive than a Challenger, which used a cardboard cutout that came with only two pencils (The golf course type, mind you-- no erasers) is both gamey and unrealistic.

BTS, please fix or do somefink.

[Guest Mike]

Only 3 posts and already a wide screen feature attraction!!

[Redwolf]

The last wenty times this came up people were complaining that the Allies tanks were too precise and the Germans undermodeled.

The prices are all wrong, that's the nature of such a pricing system.

[Ex Bellator]

Sssssssssshhhhh!!! I know it's serious, and as a fully paid BFC stooge am just trying to deflect attention away from the glaring errors in this 2 year old game.

Besides, I think it's about to start...

[Doug Beman]

Originally posted by Rex_Bellator:

*Pays extra buck for 'executive' seat in front of Hiram and wears extra large hat*

{sits in balcony and dumps trash on Rex and Hiram}

Focus! Focus!

DjB

[Janster]

I'm guessin this subjects been up before eh..chuckle..

Well anyway as I said, the pricing seems to go be modeled after performance, and with other words, maybe cheaper allied tanks would be nice...

Dont mind them blowin up, but it's a problem when mine costs the same as the jerrys..

On the lighter side, operations,any mods that makes it more interresting, and second,being able to save the entire 30 mins of combat into a file, any clues anyone..

With regards

Janster

[Pak40]

Originally posted by redwolf:

The last wenty times this came up people were complaining that the Allies tanks were too precise and the Germans undermodeled.

Janster, you are the only person I've seen in a long time complain about the accuracy of allied tanks. Usually, it's people complaining that they're too accurate, especially gyrostablizer tanks on the move.

Which specific tanks are you talking about, other than the Challenger?

What is the quality of your crew? What is the quality of your enemy's crew?

Are you using any tanks with the 95mm or 105mm guns?

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Janster:

[...]and second,being able to save the entire 30 mins of combat into a file, any clues anyone..

pkzip?

[JasonC]

Hetzers are overused and underpriced because they suck at various minor things that figure prominently in the CM unit pricing formulas, while being very good at the single most important thing, front armor strength against typical common AT weapons. For instance, they have - limited MG ammo, only used at close range; small ammo load, particularly important for HE vs. infantry; low ROF; weak side armor; no turret; no ability to carry troops. Each of which reduces their CM price, and none of which prevent them from bouncing Allied shells from their well angled front glacis and sending plain 75mm AP through almost all typical Allied AFVs. The plain Jagdpanzer is midly underpriced, though not as much so, without the limited HE load or low ROF or inability to carry troops.

The result is that armor point for armor point, a German player buying TDs gets far more armor-warfare fighting power than an Allied player buying typical Allied AFVs. BTS partially made up for that by giving the Allies more armor category points for the combined arms force type. There is also a similar bargain on the Allied side, the M8HMC, though without good armor. The counter to someone who never takes anything but Hetzers to "game" these pricing issues to to flood him with twice as many M8HMCs that take out his Hetzers with flank shots, keeping moving to avoid replies, and then mess up his infantry with their loads of 75mm HE.

After you have exhausted that little game of chicken, you can agree not to exploit obvious pricing loopholes all of the time. Redwolf offered one good rule of thumb on that, for players who want to avoid the problem by mutual consent. The rule is that for every gun armed AFV you take that costs less than 100 pts, you must buy another that costs more than 100 pts. You might consider bending the rule to allow StuGs and Stuarts I suppose.

If the date is late enough, you can also counter with Jackson TDs. Their 90mm guns will take out the sloped beasties from the front, and they only cost 117 pts apiece. Their HE load and MG ammo are relatively limited, but the same is true of the German TDs, and at least each HE round is pretty powerful. Then US TDs kill anything while German TDs are killed by only US TDs or flank shots. Incidentally, at long enough ranges W armor on Shermans stops plain German 75mm AP, except for turret hits. But the ranges involved - over 800 yards or so - tend to be rare on CM QB maps.

The heavier German tanks that historically were the real place the Germans had the quality edge in armor aren't unbalanced, though. They are more capable but priced to match. I am thinking of Tiger Is and Panthers, both excellent tanks in CMBO but at 177-199 points apiece, sporting prices that reflect their quality.

On the other hand, the improved Shermans are overpriced for the fighting power you get. A US 76mm is not even an 88L56, and W armor is not as effective against typical German weapons as Tiger I armor is against typical US ones - but a Sherman 76W costs about what a Tiger I does. Similarly, a Sherman 105 costs ~30 points more than a Sherman 75, but a StuH (105) costs ~10 points less than a StuG (75).

The main reason for these discrepancies is that the CM pricing formulas overrate minor advantages that things like improved Shermans are good at (high HE load, many MGs, fast turrets, gyros, good road speed), while underrating the AT power of the main gun and the AT defeating power of the front armor, which tend to be far more important than anything else in CM armor battles. Because those extras are nice if you are alive but no help if you aren't, and winning or losing the armor war and thus being alive to use them or not, depends mostly on armor strength, raw number of vehicles and thus low cost, and gun power to defeat enemy front armor.

The way to use the Allied armor types anyway is to mix cheap TDs with cheap, plain varieties of Sherman (or in the case of Brits, Cromwells as an alterative, with Fireflies in place of TDs), then use the TDs on enemy armor and the Shermans on enemy infantry. Plus teamwork, distraction, coordination with zooks and such. Keep the expense of each AFV at around the 120 level, or less, so if turreted "big cats" show up you outnumber them, and so you at least match the numbers of the Jagdpanzers and such.

You also have to realize that the largest CM weakness of German critters and TDs is slow turrets or lack of turrets, combined with "sticky" targeting and typically fast Allied AFVs and turrets. You need to hit them while they are facing the wrong way, distract with multiple targets, etc. All of which is harder to do than just parking an angled front plate and merrily blasting away at whatever, which German TD buyers can get away with.

Another counter to German armor, though, is not to play in their long suit at all. Fight the armor war on a shoestring and instead beat them in the infantry-HE war. With German infantry heavy on the automatics, you can't do that without using artillery to help. But the Allies have good heavy artillery. US 155s are very fast and powerful. Brit 4.5 and 5.5 inch are cheap and powerful. Kill his infantry with those and his Hetzers can't do every much to yours, with only a few minutes of medium caliber HE apiece and one weak close-defense MG with about 100m range.

I hope this helps.

[zukkov]

it's been my experience in most games that the allied tanks do very well vs the germans. it depends on the terrain features. if you can manuever in such a way to keep the terrain between yourself and the germans, then once at close range your (hopefully) superior numbers will more than make up for their armor and firepower. anyway, at ranges of less than 500 meters or so a lot of the german advantages are minimized and numbers become more important. and this will really be made true once cmbb comes out and the germans have the advantage of optics being modeled in the game...

[StellarRat]

You can kill a Hetzer with a .50 cal...doesn't seem over-priced to me.

[Olle Petersson]

Originally posted by Janster:

Just played a game and again the allied tanks doesnt seem to hit anything, particularly the low profile hetzers, who are bought in high numbers by my opponent ...

... the Challenger tank, ... is useless on the field of battle.

If you know the opponent will have lots of Hetzers, use lots of infantry.

Hetzers are really crappy against infantry!

Challengers, OTOH, are very good against infantry, and also have good mobility.

The point costs in CM are set based on serious combined arms tactics. This usually mean that Germans have a point advantage in an armour battle, while the Allies are better off with more infantry.

I can't make any insight comment to your TCP/IP problems. Better move that question to the technical support forum.

Regarding operations it's well known that the setup zones are less than perfect.

Cheers

Olle

[edgars]

I've allways liked the smell of allied tank accuracy.

BTS, don't do somefink.

[Janster]

Thanks for the replies, I have been playin this game extensivly since I got it, and being a long time Steel Panthers and Close combat vet i've seen a lot of diffrent ways of modelin this type of warfare.

Basically what I miss, tremendously, is something that indicates the general accuracy of the tanks, in steel panthers this was indicated by a 'fire control', which showed why the famous 88 flak was such a pain. (its accurate!).

What i've been struggeling against, is that in general combat(we only play operations), I rarly have any tanks superority, and actually most of the time im outnumbered, as my opponent can buy cheap and plenty of TD that seem also to bust infanty well, generally allied inf cannot take out tanks, so you have to move the zooks up, but they usually die fast when on the move.

Of course, we dont play with the single battle points limitation, but I doubt they would help much anyhow. I know a pricing system will always be flawed of course, in Steel Panthers, the germans held the upper hand most of the time aswell, as fighting the german army 1 on 1 is generally a sordid affair. Historically I think 5 shermans died for every german tank, which is a lot. Basically this would mean that I would accept losses, but when I can't hit, even with crack fireflies at 500 meters, I have an obvious problem.

Another small question btw.

I do remember there being more types of allied infantry modeled in both close combat and steel panthers, but here we're stuck with rifle squads only?

Is this historical, did they only have rifle squads???

They offer flexibility, but are hardly as good as the german counterpart in ways.

Btw, when it comes to tactics, I thought it was a big no-no to move and shoot, I remember it being a pretty sad affaire in most games, to try and move and shoot with tanks...

With regards

Janster

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Janster:

[snips]Historically I think 5 shermans died for every german tank, which is a lot.

You may historically think that, but it isn't true.

Originally posted by Janster:

I do remember there being more types of allied infantry modeled in both close combat and steel panthers, but here we're stuck with rifle squads only?

Is this historical, did they only have rifle squads???

You could no doubt make a strong case for there being a higher issue of SMGs than is shown in the CM:BO gamut of infantry sub-sub-units. Unfortunately, such weapons were not officially authorised, so it is hard to see the basis on which they could fairly be allocated. Apart from anything else, I'd really like to see British airborne squads toting MG-42s...

Originally posted by Janster:

Btw, when it comes to tactics, I thought it was a big no-no to move and shoot, I remember it being a pretty sad affaire in most games, to try and move and shoot with tanks...

Right. I don't know what the magnitude of the penalty imposed in CM:BO is for firing on the move, but it does not seem to me to be high enough. Does anyone have a firmish figure. or am I going to have to do some tedious experiments?

All the best,

John.

[Janster]

I can't remember where I have that stat from, but remember that this was in terms of dead shermans and dead tanks, I doubt there were from pure tank vs tank firefights, I belive the allied called in airplane strikes to deal with tanks more than just using their own tanks...

Altough I really have no clue here..

[WWB]

Yes, you have no clue. That rule of thumb was 5 shermans to take on one panther successfully, usually with the loss of maybe one sherman.

You see, we are pushing digital soldiers who will reload and fight another day. When it is your ass on the line, you take things a bit more seriously. Make a little more sense now?

WWB

[LightningWar]

Use the pricing models then. Allied get something like 50% boost in points.

I believe the pricing is ok. Hetzers are good little tanks for TD roles. Dont expect them to be worth much in killing INF. I suggest using Allied tanks to kill German infantry. Dont expect them to be killing German AFVs. If you need a mobile tank killing machine use the TDs. I believe the M10, M36, Wolverine are all around 120 points and can kill most of the uber German tanks.

IMO this is where the pricing comes into play. Use the tanks for their correct role and you will do quite well.

-LW

[Thin Red Line]

Originally posted by Janster:

I would accept losses, but when I can't hit, even with crack fireflies at 500 meters, I have an obvious problem.

In Cintheaux-Totalize scenario (which i encourage you to play if you don't want to care about units cost), i have regular Fireflies scoring kills on Tigers at 1500m +.

Just my 2cts.

[Doug Beman]

Originally posted by wwb_99:

Yes, you have no clue. That rule of thumb was 5 shermans to take on one panther successfully, usually with the loss of maybe one sherman.

You see, we are pushing digital soldiers who will reload and fight another day. When it is your ass on the line, you take things a bit more seriously. Make a little more sense now?

WWB

You can get further evidence disproving the "5 dead Shermans for every Panther" by comparing Panthers lost in tank/tank duels in Europe with Shermans lost in the same category. I don't have the exact numbers handy, but am pretty sure the ratio is more favorable than 5:1 (ie only 2 or 3 Shermans are killed in tank/tank duels for every 1 Panther).

DjB

[ August 09, 2002, 08:45 AM: Message edited by: Doug Beman ]

[Pak40]

Originally posted by Janster:

Basically what I miss, tremendously, is something that indicates the general accuracy of the tanks, in steel panthers this was indicated by a 'fire control', which showed why the famous 88 flak was such a pain. (its accurate!).

By targeting an enemy vehicle, you can get a % to hit shown when it the line "snaps" to the enemy vehicle. It is, of coarse, only a general % number, but it takes into account unit type, distance, movement, target size etc..

If you want to figure out all of the tanks' % to hit, then simply create a custom scenario that has every allied tank. place an enemy tank equidistant from all of the allied tanks(ie. 1000 meters from each allied tank). Use the targeting command from each allied tank to get the % to hit. Be sure to use the same model German tank, since differnent tanks have different sizes.

Originally posted by Janster:

I do remember there being more types of allied infantry modeled in both close combat and steel panthers, but here we're stuck with rifle squads only?

Is this historical, did they only have rifle squads???

They offer flexibility, but are hardly as good as the german counterpart in ways.

yup, this is pretty much historically accurate. Close Combat only had rifle squads, IIRC. They may have given them different names such as BAR, Assault, and Ad-hoc, but the primary weapon in all of these squads was still the M1 Garand rifle.

The U.S. Ranger companies is not modeled in CM, unfortunately.

[Olle Petersson]

Originally posted by Janster:

Basically what I miss, tremendously, is something that indicates the general accuracy of the tanks, ...

You can always compare muzzle velocity. That's the most important relative factor for accuracy in the CM model.

I do remember there being more types of allied infantry modeled in both close combat and steel panthers, but here we're stuck with rifle squads only?

Is this historical, did they only have rifle squads?

You do have engineers, lider troops and paratroopers...

Of course there were other "squad types" as well, but they fall within at least one of the following categories;

- rarely (if ever) used in battles of CM scale.

- too few to bother about.

- too close to the regular rifle squad to bother about giving it a different name.

(The ones I'd like to see, but won't, in CMBO are US armored infantry (from platoon to battalion) and British carrier recon teams (dismounted, by platoon). These typically had a higher portion of automatic weapons than the regular foot sluggers AND were common on the battlefield.

Btw, when it comes to tactics, I thought it was a big no-no to move and shoot, ...

Correct. This isn't very well modelled in CM, but you can always imagine that the tank does a short halt to fire even if it looks as if it's moving...

Cheers

Olle