thoughts on RL and gaming

[Grisha]

It's unfortunate the sort of dialogue that's been posted in this forum of late. While I can understand the desires for making the gaming experience enjoyable (especially extended versions, like ladders, multiplayer campaigns and tournaments), the demands of real life should really be unquestionable. I've been able to live both lives. First, as a single man who's only concern was getting home in time to make an online scenario with my internet 'squaddies'. Then, as a married man who's time seems whittled away with thoughts/worries for son, wife, house, bills, friends, work, pets, health, and whatever else intrudes upon my life on any given day.

Should those of us with busy lives not consider entering these sorts of events on the grounds that RL concerns may be 'frowned upon'?

I don't ask this lightly, but as someone who wants to know where the consensus is with this community, since it will most definitely influence my decision to participate in future events with CMBB, a game I am particularly eager to acquire and play.

[Michael Dorosh]

The issue you refer to was the use of RL as a feigned excuse in which to sabotage a tournament that several people had agreed to participate in, Grisha. That's all that needs to be said about that.

I think the general consensus is as you say - that RL should in all instances take priority, but it depends on the individuals you play with, so the consensus, as you put it, is irrelevant when it comes to a person by person basis. In other words, it is up to your opponent how he wants to deal with the problem of time commitment.

[JonS]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

The issue you refer to was the use of RL as a feigned excuse in which to sabotage a tournament that several people had agreed to participate in ...

Really? You know that? How? I would be quite surprised if you knew enough about someone you only really contact digitally to state, categorically, that they were feigning anything.

As to the wider issue that Grisha brings up; good faith, ongoing commitment, and communication usually go a long way. I'm involved in CMMC and have been part of the two ROW tourneys. In all three events I have seen lots of people come and go, and also seen a faily solid core of folk who hang around and just keep on trucking. So far that cruel mistress Life™ has smiled upon me, and I haven't been forced to pullout - though its been close a few times. No one likes to see someone forced by Life™ to withdraw from something entertaining. But it happens, and no grudges are held - with one big proviso.

When one* joins an event, one should be realistic with oneself about whether one will be able to provide sufficient input, and sustained input, to make entry worthwhile.

Once over that hurdle, as long as one lets ones opponents and/or team-mates know early enough that one is going to be out - either out for a few weeks, or out completely - then there is usually no problem. Replacements can be found, and the event can continue.

What really frosts my cookies - and I suspect most folks - is when someone disappears with nary a word nor explanation. There is an understandable reluctance to take arbitrary action to replace the AWOL party, who could be away for any number of good and valid reasons. This can seriously slow down play of events. A quick statement from the concerned party that they will have to withdraw (or bow out for a few days/weeks) can save all the other participants a lot of concern and frustration.

Its simple courtesy IMHO. And it all rests on good communications. With the proliferation of internet at work, and cybercafes, even a catastrophic home PC crash shouldn't prevent one from letting others know your situation.

Regards

JonS

* Extensive use made of the third party 'one' in honour of the Queen and the Commonwealth Games.

Edit: I blame it all on UBB. Everything. The whole damn shooting match. Including spelling and grammar mistakes. Its all the fault of that bloody UBB.

[ August 05, 2002, 04:32 AM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[wodasini88]

I experianced this a lot in the game I played previously and it seems to me to really be dependant on who you are playing with. If I got the chance to go out with friends without notice but had a preschedualed tourney for the game I would ditch it and go with my friends. I would play consistantly for months and then disappear. How others you play with/against react is what you need to think about. For me it didn't matter, since it was just a game. How you feel about the game and people you play with should be the judge of wether or not you join tournies/ladders etc.

[Runyan99]

Hi Matt!

[ August 05, 2002, 04:19 AM: Message edited by: Runyan99 ]

[Andreas]

Grisha, I agree that this is unfortunate as a development. I think that any highly competitive activity like a tournament (regardless in what) has the potential to bring the worst out in people. The good thing about CM is that you can enjoy it without that. The best way to do that is to play people you know and trust. In my case that means I have a good range of people I play repeatedly, and with whom the exchange of emails is going beyond a 'back to you' in many cases. That way, even losing a game can be an enjoyable experience, and you don't need to burden yourself to try to 'outrig' your opponent before the game even started. I can win or lose with any force I was given, and don't need any rules to make sure I enjoy the game. I guess it depends on what you are looking for in a game. I fully agree with Jon on dropouts though.

[Pacestick]

You mean there is a "real life" out there somewhere

[M. Bates]

Sometimes it's impossible to complete a CM turn. A player in a ladder or tourny needs to spend at least ten to thirty minutes on a turn to make sure that everything is right. I often save a partially-completed turn then come back to it a day later, to finish plotting everything until I'm fully happy. A lot of these players have families etc, and they can hardly go away to the computer to play "some video game" while other stuff needs doing (cooking meals, kicking the cat etc).

On the wider issue of what's happened recently, I don't exactly see how one single player can "sabotage" - as Dorosh says - an invitational tourny, if the agreed rules get changed and public pressure is applied in order to extract game files or purchases. The tournament in question should have continued with the other 2 or 3 matches, given progress/battle reports to the CM forums, then waited for the other players to catch up

[ August 05, 2002, 05:26 AM: Message edited by: M. Bates ]

[athkatla]

Hi Mom

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Pacestick:

You mean there is a "real life" out there somewhere

Yes. And it's coming to take you away!

Michael

[0time]

Originally posted by athkatla:

Hi Mom

[Prinz Eugen]

Could you clarify a bit ?

What's this real life that I hear talked about ? :confused:

You mean, there's something else than CM ?!?

[Doug Beman]

Hmmmm...let's make a list of dumb things to do:

* poke a hornets' nest with a chopstick

* tell the p'eace officer "you wouldn't be so tough without the gun"

* decide to make a "mystery quiche" with all the things in the veggie drawer

* repeatedly discuss topics that Madmatt has repeatedly put into the biohazard container

It's unfortunate that this happened. Even accepting that it did happen, it should never have appeared on this forum. Accepting that it did, it makes me wince to see people flying in the face of Madmatt's (and the rest) decision.

DjB

[Fionn]

Grisha,

Personally speaking I hold the viewpoint that RL is more important than some virtual game-world ( or tournament). When something important needs doing in real life then it is irresponsible to indulge one's hobby ( virtual or real world) to the detriment of real, important committments. That's my opinion.

I agreed to take part in the Titans tourney as a favour to the organisers on the understanding that my free time would be limited and that it would be important to be able to dip in and out as my work allowed.

That is no disrespect to the participants ( and certainly no fear of any of them) it is simply a reflection of the fact that I am committed to my patients and place them first. When it is necessary to do so I place them before CM:BO games, before CM:BB testing, before going to the movies, before meeting up with friends and going on dates.

Treeburst seems to have harboured some sort of bad feelings towards me for some time ( by his own admission). That's fine. He turfed me out of the tournament because of my putting my work first. That is also fine. He then cancelled the tourney in a fit of pique. I don't think that was necessary but, in the end, it is his choice and, to be fair, he'll probably reconsider once he calms down a bit.

And now I think it is my right to lay out some facts from which you can draw your own conclusions re: my "feigned excuses" ...

1. This week I worked 88 hours, 38 of them as one of only 2 doctors covering slightly over 250 patients. The other 50 or so hours featured me being the sole physician ultimately responsible for 18 patients ranging in age from 67 to 100 suffering from a wide variety of conditions ( ranging from epilepsy, atrial fibrillation, ?Pulmonary Embolism, Pneumonias, Cancers, Wegeners, auto-immune disorders, parkinsons, alzheimer's strokes, myocardial infarctions etc... and to be honest most of them had at least 3 or 4 of the above at the same time . There's nothing like trying to treat Congestive Cardiac Failure in a fellow with Renal Failure and C2H5OH-induced Hepatic failure to get your blood pumping . ). It was my responsibility to take and organise blood tests, X-rays, CTs, Ultra-sound examinations, ECGs, Dopplers, Holter monitors etc etc. When something couldn't be done between the hours of 8am and 6pm I stayed until I DID get it done ( often driving to the lab to deliver important bloods myself just to make sure they get done). Now, my official hours are 9am to 5pm... It is ENTIRELY my choice to work 2 to 3 hours more every day. Some people are gonna try and twist this to say I'm looking for sympathy or some BS like that so just let me say that I am extremely happy with my work AND could get away with doing 8 hours a day. That I do a minimum of 11 or 12 every day is entirely my choice. That doing those hours means I have to cut various things out of my social life/cut down my social life dramatically is something I'm willing to do since I see the benefit to my patients from those extra hours I put in.

However working those hours means that by the time I eat and go to the gym it is time for me to go to sleep if I'm to function the next day. The above means that CM:BO is something which often doesn't get "squeezed in". This is why many of my current games ( and emails related to them) are in abeyance and why I commented about the imposition of time limits in the tourney. Apologies to anyone who is waiting for a reply or whatever but I've said before how busy I am so it was known and, frankly, if your worth a damn as a human being you shouldn't have problems with coming 2nd to ill people in hospital.

Next week I've volunteered to cover an additional 24 hour weekend shift with the result that I'm pulling a 24 hour shift on Friday AND my previously scheduled 24 hour shift starting on Sunday. So out of the 64 hours spanning 5pm Friday till 9am Monday I will be working a minimum of 48 hours ( probably will end up being about 54 to 56 hours though). Will that leave me with time to catch up on CM:BO during the 10 hours I'll have free next weekend? Hell no! Will I apologise to you or anyone else for that? Hell no! (Am I looking for any sympathy or whatever? Hell no!!!! I volunteered because I'm happy to do the hours since playing CM:BO or going out isn't as important to me as ensuring there's someone there for my patients for those hours.)

When you are dealing with people dying on you, coming in with heart attacks, losing legs in car accidents and/or generally succumbing to infections, clots etc CM:BO is EXTREMELY UNIMPORTANT! I've lost 8 patients in the past month and confidently expect at least 2 more to die this week, including one guy I've become friends with and for whom I organised a surprise in-hospital birthday party about 10 days ago. Again, when you compare some virtual PBEM games to the lives and health of these patients it is easy to see which is FAR, FAR more important. I put my patients first and PBEM games etc last. I won't apologise for that. If YOUR relative was in under me you'd be a damn sight happier that I was putting in 12+ hours a day and skimping on PBEM games than if I was leaving after 8 to 9 hours and conducting a full PBEM life in some relatively unimportant virtual world.

To re-iterate: Did I feign excuses? No. I'm a doctor and I'm conscientious enough that I spend a lot of extra time in work and volunteer to cover calls which others can't do. Next week I expect to exceed 100 work spread over 6 days. Will the above mean that I probably won't touch my CM:BO games or emails next week? Yes. Is it a pity? Yes. Will I apologise to you or anyone else for devoting myself to my patients and trying to do the best job I possibly can? Hell no!!!

There are more important things in life than CM:BO and my patients are those more important things!!!!

With all that said I think the following also needs to be said...Treeburst seems not to like me and he seems to have drawn some rather dubious conclusions from the fact that I was just extremely busy. Fair enough, I've stopped trying to have everyone like me. It simply isn't going to happen . I bear him no malice even if I may think he's rather stupid to open his mouth so publicly without first actually checking his facts.

I amn't looking for a huge fight here so please consider this a " here's where I'm coming from and my work situation. YOU can take these FACTS ( as opposed to mud-slinging opinions) and decide for yourselves where you stand."

1. Here is where my priorities are.

2. Here is why I amn't devoting as much time to CM as I may once have.

3. I amn't going to apologise for devoting time to my patients to the detriment of PBEM games.

4. If you think that I'm wrong to devote time to patients instead of CM then we'll just have to agree to disagree but making stuff up is and throwing a temper tantrum simply isn't adult behaviour.

5. To anyone who has made a challenge or has had a game go into abeyance. Well, I always said I was dead busy. I'm just in a very, very busy period for the next month or so ( if it is any consolation I have to work at least 24 out of 48 hours ( and often 36 out of 48) every weekend in August in addition to my normal 60 hours a week Monday to Friday) and my PBEM games aren't a priority.

6. None of this is ANY reflection on the importance I attach or the respect in which I hold any individual or tourney. It is simply a reflection of the fact that compared to the health and lives of my patients ALL things CM are extremely unimportant. In any case while certain folks are enjoying painting me as a SINGLE person out to wreck the tournament I'll just point out that TWO OTHERS didn't send in any purchases yet either. It is hardly as though I am the only one who was busy with Real Life. Why aren't these folks targetting them too?

7. Again, I won't apologise to anyone here for putting my patients before some PBEM games.

Lastly, I apologise for any lack of clarity in my post. I've re-read it to try to ensure it is clear and factual but since I'm just off a 29 hour shift right now ( 2 hrs sleep... but no deaths ) I'm sure it isn't quite as clear as I would wish.

P.s. And no, I won't be replying to any emails or doing any turns today. I'm in again in 14 hours and need to get some food and some sleep.

P.p.s. I NEVER accused Treeburst of seeking to sabotage his tourney. I merely said that feature creep was occuring and suddenly deadlines were being imposed when previously we were told none were going to be imposed. That's not sabotage, that's just moving the goalposts mid-game.

P.p.p.s. I also think it is important to say that Mike's reply to my post, the various flames and the banning all occured while I was in work. I only found out about this about 2 hours ago when I came home and checked my email for the first time in about 4 days and saw an email from a friend about it.

Also it is important to say that I certainly would support Treeburst being re-instated. I don't require an apology or anything. I would hope that he would undertake to keep his postings civil. What he thinks privately doesn't matter so long as he keeps it private ( and to be fair I had no inkling he thought any of this until he exploded yesterday). So, if he would undertake to be PUBLICLY civil I'd have zero problem with him coming back. I just thought it was important to say I wasn't standing in his way.

[ August 05, 2002, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: Fionn ]

[Naja]

As with real life if you commit to something game or otherwise there is at lest an understanding that you will follow through with it? But heck this is fanboy time...Funny was just reading the archives lots of 1 person being offended...be creative with your searches...try banned

[Bruno Weiss]

Gloria: We miss you, come home soon.

[acrashb]

Getting back to the original topic without the innuendo, let's compare this issue to - real life.

In RL, you may belong to a soccer league. Each week you are expected to practice once and play once. You are expected to make this commitment taking into consideration your other life activities (work, family) because a failure to live up to the commitement affects your fellow soccer players, who take the game more or less seriously.

If you miss too many practices or games, eventually the team will ask you to leave (or at least not let you play in the games, reserving that for those who show up for practice).

There doesn't have to be any malice in the decision; your fellow soccer players may or may not know that your child is sick, your company is demanding extra hours and so on - or they may just take your word, based on a solid history, that you can't make it. But you still have to leave, because others somehow do manage to meet their league commitments, and they should not be penalized because you can't.

Now, there are more and less serious soccer leagues. Those that are competitive and those that are advertised as "fun". If you get into a competitive league, you can expect that the participants will require more of your commitment than the fun league, and should plan accordingly.

If your plans get knocked off track, then the soccer league should show some grace when asking you to resign.

Putting it in this perspective, there is no essential difference between gaming and RL, and the expectations of RL should and can carry over to gaming.

Where this breaks down is in the lack of face-to-face interaction, often leading to behaviours that people would not normally contemplate in RL. Find a bunch of people who comport their virtual selves as they would their RL selves, and you will have a good experience.

[Ligur]

Well, regarding the original question in the thread:

No, nobody in this community has ever "frowned" upon me if RL has attacked me voraciously, intending to destroy me and thus prevented me from playing as much/fast as originally intended. Everyone ALWAYS understands and ppl are polite and friendly about it.

You are referring to a single case where there was reason to suspect something else was going on.

Thanks bye.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by JonS:

Really? You know that? How? I would be quite surprised if you knew enough about someone you only really contact digitally to state, categorically, that they were feigning anything.

The point you are missing, Jon, is that the two individuals involved are not someone that Grisha knows, and more imporantly, should not judge the entire community on. And whether or not person B did in fact feign RL commitments, it was certainly the perception of person A - which still makes it a lousy reason to judge the entire community.

Basically, Grisha has asked "is this how the majority of people feel about RL and CM time commitments?" The answer is that the talk he's seen is certainly atypical - enough to get one person banned - because he apparently thought that this was what was happening.

Oui?

[Panzer76]

Originally posted by Grisha:

I don't ask this lightly, but as someone who wants to know where the consensus is with this community, since it will most definitely influence my decision to participate in future events with CMBB, a game I am particularly eager to acquire and play.

To be frank, I dont see the need for this question at all, it's just silly. Who in their right mind would say that CM is more important than RL? No one has, and the day they say it is the day they should seek professional help. RL will always be more important than computer games, that some one feel the need to ask that question is just strange :confused:

[Tarquelne]

RL will always be more important than computer games,

I think it's more accurate to say "Computer games will always be one _part_ of real life." It's not like online gameing (or offline gaming) is some dreamland that we go to only when we sleep and is not connected to anyone else, or the rest of our lives.

Unless you're a hermit (as I imagine many CM players to be) the way you spend your time can easily effect other people, for good or ill. It doesn't matter whether you're playing soccer or CM, or working on the cure for cancer. I think the advice on being upfront about the demands on your time excellent. Even if it's a computer game CM is still something you Really Do, and so its part of your Real Life, and requires Real Time.

The point you are missing, Jon, is that the two individuals involved are not someone that Grisha knows, and more imporantly, should not judge the entire

You really are telepathic, MD? As far as I can tell, JonS simply didn't address that point. The passage you quoted was not at all about Grisha's perceptions, but yours. It's easy to intrepret your statement as an very strong claim that Fionn did indeed act in the manner that Treeburst stated. And he does address "the point" in the rest of his message.

I think JonS simply tried to confirm that you want to stand behind Treeburst's claim without qualification, or if you seemed so "matter of fact" about what happened merely because the accusation itself is a matter of fact.

[ August 05, 2002, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: Tarqulene ]

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Fionn wrote:

Also it is important to say that I certainly would support Treeburst being re-instated. I don't require an apology or anything. I would hope that he would undertake to keep his postings civil. What he thinks privately doesn't matter so long as he keeps it private ( and to be fair I had no inkling he thought any of this until he exploded yesterday). So, if he would undertake to be PUBLICLY civil I'd have zero problem with him coming back. I just thought it was important to say I wasn't standing in his way.

I think this is a case of the classic olive branch being held out here and I only hope the opportunity is grasped by both TB and the moderators alike to allow it to happen.

My 2 cents (in the time I have left here in the forum).

Regards

Jim R.

[Andrew H.]

Originally posted by Tarqulene:

I think it's more accurate to say "Computer games will always be one _part_ of real life." It's not like online gameing (or offline gaming) is some dreamland that we go to only when we sleep and is not connected to anyone else, or the rest of our lives.

Unless you're a hermit (as I imagine many CM players to be) the way you spend your time can easily effect other people, for good or ill. It doesn't matter whether you're playing soccer or CM, or working on the cure for cancer. I think the advice on being upfront about the demands on your time excellent. Even if it's a computer game CM is still something you Really Do, and so its part of your Real Life, and requires Real Time.

This is exactly right. You are obligated to CM *exactly* to the extent you agree to make yourself obligated to CM - no more, and no less.

If you state that you will return turns (or whatever) as often as you can, but that you are pretty busy, this is the extent of your obligation, and people have no business expecting anything more than that.

Similarly, if you say that you will be available for tcp/ip play every Saturday at 3 pm, you have an obligation to be available then. An actual emergency takes precedence, of course, but friends showing up does not. So don't make the committment if you can't keep it, as there are real people on the other side of the battle, and they, presumably, gave up their social committments to be there.

[Fionn]

" You are referring to a single case where there was reason to suspect something else was going on."

I'd LOVE to hear the in-depth knowledge about this you surely have... After all I'm sure you wouldn't make a statement such as the above without a lot of solid information which you'd be willing to share.

Same goes for the various folks who, presumably, have all this evidence of me feigning my work committments. After all they've made public accusations which basically call me a liar. I'd be most interested in hearing the EVIDENCE they have to back up these claims as I'm sure they wouldn't go around calling people liars just because they dislike them and would hate to think well of them. So, you know who you are ( MD ), share the evidence you have. I'm sure it will prove illuminating.

Andrew,

Good points.

FWIW I obligated myself to playing the games at a relaxed pace with NO time limits in place on force selection and NO time limit on place on when the games would start and finish. I even stated that I'd likely be VERY slow to start games since I was so busy. IOW I consider that the circumstances which I was in when I made my post were exactly the circumstances which I had warned Treeburst about before joining the tourney. He took me on board in full knowledge of the work situation since I explained it to him in depth when he asked me to join the tourney as I said I was concerned that my speed of reply to turns would not be sufficient.

How joining up under those conditions and then being as busy as I said I would be and objecting to the parachuting in of new conditions could be sabotage is beyond me but, then again, where people want to think ill of one they will always twist the facts until anything that happens can be seen to be the fault of someone they don't like .

If I had committed to having games in on a certain day and then couldn't have them in I would have either explained what happened or resigned due to RL committments. OTOH I committed to no due date and was simply operating under the rules under which I agreed to join the tourney.

Oh and lastly, I see some people saying some stuff about me dropping out. UHUH!!! I objected to the new time limit and was booted out by Treeburst. I didn't resign, I was booted out.

As far as I was concerned the new time limit was something to discuss, get an extension on ( since I'm so busy right now) and then do my purchases for. I was quite happy to do my purchases for all my games but there was no way they were going to be done by the time of the current time limit. If I'd gotten an extra week or 10 days that'd have been fine.

Treeburst entertained no discussion but, being in a bad mood that day and having other, hitherto unknown, issues with me, decided to boot me ( against my will).

Again, I amn't massively worked up about it one way or the other since either way I have too little free time to pursue the hobbies I want BUT I do think it is unfortunate that some people seek to misrepresent things to paint one picture when things are actually quite transparent once the chronology is spelled out.

1. Time limit imposed from above when one of the primary conditions on participation was that there wasn't going to be some time limit.

2. Objection raised to said time limit.

3. Player booted out after raising said objection with no attempt made to ascertain RL situation, possible time limit extension etc. Player expulsion accompanied by much abuse and shoaling of various other folks who never miss an opportunity to get a dig in .

[Dirtweasle]

Grisha,

Some several months back someone, (Jason C. I seem to recall), was organizing a campaign for CMBO. He decided that only those that could promise to TCP/IP games at a certain specific time would be allowed to join. There was no flexibility to PBEM over a weeks time, move the TCP/IP appointment. At least there was none offered, at least to me when I asked, as part of the agreement to participate. I am not sure whatever happened to the campaign. Anyway, this is a fairly reasonable CM example of the "soccer league" Those committed enough to schedule off a weekend afternoon did so, and others like me had to drop. (I wonder if that campaign stalled, finished is still going on?)

Even though CMMC has really dragged on past when I thought the operation would end, the one thing that is nice about it is the flexibility to schedule CM battles. I've been in CMMC sine the first turn, and have yet to have a problem. The CMMC info page specifically says RL takes precedence.

So I think that it is important to understand what the expectations are from the inception of the campaign, tourney, club, etc., etc.,

As for the Titans tourney morass that this thread is also commenting on... I read through some of the lawyering going on and at first was just astounded that this thing had to be debated to such length. But, I do not play competitive ladder style games so to each his own. I figured from reading through the rules, purchase requests, and what-not that the first game would either begin in late August or bog down and die. BTW - the original post that I found said this, "4) Timeframe. Again, left to the participants/managers when they want to start/finish. No need to rush..." I thought the lawyering was kind of amusing, and it was educational as I never considered many of the game-system aspects brought up in the thread. But I can see how the person arbitrating the rules, and trying to keep track of them would get fed up. But to the point - the thing started off with the charter that, there was no need to rush... hey they spent months agreeing to the rules, why even worry about a couple weeks here or there to actually start playing the PBEM battles? The PBEM battles themselves had no time-frames in the charter other than to be agreed upon by the individuals playing the games themselves. How can you blame someone for just re-establishing what the initial agreement was?