André Posted January 21, 2002 Share Posted January 21, 2002 I know this has been asked before, but it has not been properly answered yet. Since the code is at least 95% complete, I would think its possible for BTS to answer questions on this issue now. This is what we know so far: 1.We know that CMBB will include trenches. 2.They can be bought in a QB. This is what I want to know: 1. Can they be linked together to form larger trench systems? 2. Can units move unspotted from one end to the other? 3. Will it be possible to link trenches, pillboxes and dug-in possitions together? 4. Have you completed the graphics for the trench yet? If so please give us a screenie! 5. Can tanks run over them? Thanks BTS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Harrison Posted January 21, 2002 Share Posted January 21, 2002 IIRC they did say that the trenches could link together. For your other questions, one can only hope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted January 21, 2002 Share Posted January 21, 2002 Answers are "yes" to all your questions. The one about moving unspotted is, of course, situational. If you have a trench at the bottom of a hill and the enemy is on top, it isn't going to do much for you The graphics are done, but we aren't planning on posting screenshots right now. It really isn't all that different than what you are imagining them to be. They are (IIRC) 10m long and can be placed just like barbedwire in CMBO. You can overlap and intersect them and the system will handle that just fine. Unfortunately, due to code restrictions you can still not move troops/weapons in and out of bunkers. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted January 22, 2002 Share Posted January 22, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Heinz 25th PzReg: This is what I want to know: 1. Can they be linked together to form larger trench systems? 2. Can units move unspotted from one end to the other? 3. Will it be possible to link trenches, pillboxes and dug-in possitions together?<hr></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Big Time Software: Answers are "yes" to all your questions. <hr></blockquote> ok let me see if I got this right. I buy 20 of these trenches and move them right along all over the map, linked-together and all. Then, my troops can move *unspotted* from one end of the trench system to any other? wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted January 22, 2002 Share Posted January 22, 2002 Correct Of course the chance of moving observed or not is situationally dependent as mentioned in my previous post. You can even do stuff like have a first line of trenches with "line of communication" trenches connecting them to secondary positions and/or escape routes. For people who can't picture this, think of two parallel defense lines with one or more connecting trenches. When the first line looks lost you move your guys back through the connecting trenches to the second line. The one caveat to all of this is that the graphics are similar to the current depiction of foxholes. In other words, they lie flat ontop of the terrain. This is 100% unavoidable given the limitations of the CM game engine. We know some people won't like this (as they didn't like the foxholes), so we are ready to see a few complaints about the visuals. We are also ready to say "you don't think the graphics are up to Quake standards? Fine, they aren't. But the other choice was to not have them at all. Or of course you could wait about 5 years when we have rewritten the game engine and revisit the Eastern Front" Functionality first, all other things are of secondary concern to us. I am sure the overwhelming majority will be more than happy to know that we haven't changed our way of making games Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnight Warrior Posted January 22, 2002 Share Posted January 22, 2002 Question. I would think that one could use trenches to simulate small streams and gullies. Is this true or false? If so, i wonder if the trench graphics is mod-able o have a stream apperance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMotion Posted January 22, 2002 Share Posted January 22, 2002 Can you put trenches ontop of any terrain? Would it be possible to have a pavement trench connecting two houses in a city fight? Or a swamp trench? Does terrain have any effect on how far the trench can be spotted? Like if the trench was in a wheat field would that make it almost unspottable unless you're standing right next to it? What about the price of these 10 meter trench blocks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted January 22, 2002 Share Posted January 22, 2002 I suppose one could use a trench for some sort of gully, but remember that a graphics mod will make ALL trenches look that way. I'm presonally not a big fan of special cased Mods, but that is just my opinion. Trenches can be placed on all sorts of terrain, but to be honest I am not sure what the no-nos are. And yes, as far as I know the "host" terrain is just as valid for trenches as it is for foxholes. So I am pretty sure a trench out in a flat field is going to be easier to spot than one in Woods. Price is fairly cheap. But we have redone so many things regarding purchasing that point for point can't be compared with CMBO. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted January 22, 2002 Share Posted January 22, 2002 very interesting. <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Big Time Software: The one caveat to all of this is that the graphics are similar to the current depiction of foxholes. In other words, they lie flat ontop of the terrain. This is 100% unavoidable given the limitations of the CM game engine. <hr></blockquote> that is not a problem, and a minor issue that fades completely when compared to the potential and greatness of the "trench" feature as such. <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Functionality first, all other things are of secondary concern to us. <hr></blockquote> oh yes! looking forward to CMBB! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomm Posted January 22, 2002 Share Posted January 22, 2002 Some more questions: 1) Will the 3-man groups align with the trench, that is, will they form a line when stationary and a column when moving, even around corners? 2) Will they be submerged to a certain extent so that only the upper body is visible when they stand upright? 3) Will it be possible to integrate gun pits in the trench system? Regards, Thomm ad 2: I think it should be possible to move the base level of the models according to position: if they are prone, move them upwards such that they are still visible. If they are upright, move them down so that the illusion of them standing in the trench is kept. This vertical movement could be performed simultanously with the corresponding animation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoffel Posted January 22, 2002 Share Posted January 22, 2002 About spotting wel,BTS should draw a line somewhere,the abstractions given by Steve seems ok to me. It depends on how much time you have to camouflage things and how well trained the unit is in my unit we would get 24 hours to dig in our vehicle and to dig mg and rifle pits fortified with sandbags ,we were very good in camouflaging it,but as I said when you have enough time that is possible on an exercise in Germany i saw a British tank dug in and camouflaged in grasslands,we only saw it when we were at 500 meters away from it. it wasnt visible from the air,our recon units and the choppers didn't see them. it was a very nasty surprise for our main force we lost the exercise because they took out the HQ unit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted January 22, 2002 Share Posted January 22, 2002 Thomm, <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Will the 3-man groups align with the trench, that is, will they form a line when stationary and a column when moving, even around corners?<hr></blockquote> No. This doesn't happen at any other point in the game so if we did this it would be just as applicable to running around a corner of a building or something. Until the game engine is rewritten any figure model and animation changes will take far more time than they are worth. Top game engine rewrite goal is to do the opposite. <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>2) Will they be submerged to a certain extent so that only the upper body is visible when they stand upright?<hr></blockquote> They behave exactly the same as they do in foxholes. <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>3) Will it be possible to integrate gun pits in the trench system?<hr></blockquote> Sorta. You can intersect a trench with a foxhole. <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>I think it should be possible to move the base level of the models according to position<hr></blockquote> Many things are possible when time is not a factor. It is, so this particular suggestion is not something we are going to do. Still many more important things to be done. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swift Posted January 22, 2002 Share Posted January 22, 2002 Wow, reading this thread makes me very impressed. The fact that BTS take the time to read and answer questions about a game in progress is outstanding. Keep up the good work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abn_Ranger87 Posted January 22, 2002 Share Posted January 22, 2002 Hmm... My question has to do with clearing said trenches. If an assault element gains a foothold in said excavation, will they (and the defenders) have an increased chance to hit targets within a linear section? Are grenades going to have an increased effect when tossed into them? Also, will the tac-AI make use of them to move from one part of a defensive network to another without being micro-managed?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
André Posted January 23, 2002 Author Share Posted January 23, 2002 Thanks BTS for the replies! I dont care much about the graphical representation as long as they function in a realistic way. I am sure you will achieve just that and I cannot wait to see the end result. Best regards, Heinz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASL Veteran Posted January 23, 2002 Share Posted January 23, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Abn_Ranger87: Hmm... My question has to do with clearing said trenches. If an assault element gains a foothold in said excavation, will they (and the defenders) have an increased chance to hit targets within a linear section? Are grenades going to have an increased effect when tossed into them? Also, will the tac-AI make use of them to move from one part of a defensive network to another without being micro-managed?.<hr></blockquote> Actually trenches are not generally dug in a straight line. They are usually dug in a 'crenallated' or a 'zig zag' fashion (I don't know what the official term would be). So, once you are in the trench, the enemy would derive just as much cover as he would if you were not in the trench. This is why the grenade was born in WW1. Trench fighting in WW1 once you gained a foothold in a trench was mostly done with grenades - you would toss a grenade into the next 'zig' before rushing out of your 'zag' with automatic weapons. As long as I am posting in this thread though, I am wondering (hoping) about AT trenches. Will those be included and will tanks not be able to drive over them? :cool: (I sure hope they are or a lot of scenario briefing writing is going to be deleted) (keeping fingers tightly crossed) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abn_Ranger87 Posted January 23, 2002 Share Posted January 23, 2002 ASL veteran, After spending 15 years in the Infantry, I am quite aware of how trench lines are layed out You are absolutely correct about the "doglegs" used to prevent enfilading fire. However, the stretches between these turns can be anywhere from 5-50 meters in length depending on national SOP. As a corporal, I led a dismounted team during the clearing of a defensive line being manned by the Iraqi 53rd mechanized brigade (was with 2nd ACR, we only needed to secure the immediate area around the breach to facilitate the crossing of our regimental service squadron ie. RPG range, follow on forces finished the job...) Their trenches were about 25 meters to a leg and incorporated strongpoints with crew served systems at the junctures. Hull down positions for their vehicles were about 50 meters back from the MLD with connecting communication trenches. Thankfully, our blue-suit friends in their magnificent flying machines worked them over quite well before we attacked, and our supporting M1a1s and Bradleys proved quite adept at maintaining direct fire on the uncleared sections. The technique used for entry was rolling our Bradleys two abreast up to the line and dropping the ramps while the gunners maintained surpressive fire. Two more squads followed on once the foothold was established and we pushed out about 200m each direction. Like I said, we didn't have to hold for long. Took only about 20 minutes for the RSS to cross after we gave the word. We then retrograded back to the breach point and mounted up. Casualtys were negligable (one troop broke his ankle jumping in, and another got fragments into his side when he incorrectly "cooked" off a grenade...) but our opponents really had the the fight knocked out of them by the heavy stuff before we went in so...to be honest I'm glad about that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSword Posted January 23, 2002 Share Posted January 23, 2002 Will the build prize for a trench tile depend on the underlying ground ? It's much harder to dig in frozen ground (In fact one has to rely excessively on explosives, but quite easy in the spring/summer month on soft soil. Can the trenches be leveled/detroyed by heavy arty fire -> Give less and less cover after consecutive hits near misses ? What are in general the possible effects of mid - heavy arty on trenches and their poor inhabitants ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeauCoupDinkyDau Posted January 23, 2002 Share Posted January 23, 2002 STOP TALKING ABOUT THIS GAME! IF I HEAR ANYTHING ELSE COOL ABOUT CMBB I AM GOING TO EXPLODE FROM THE ANTISIPATION!!!!!!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schrullenhaft Posted January 23, 2002 Share Posted January 23, 2002 TSword - my impression is that trenches will behave much like foxholes for the questions you pose. Since trenches aren't built during a battle there will be little regard as to how frozen the ground is. I don't know if there is any intent on increasing their prices if the ground condition is frozen. I don't think that trenches can be leveled/destroyed, just like foxholes can't be currently. They remain despite shelling (and I don't think that their cover qualities are reduced by shelling). Like foxholes trenches will provide cover from artillery (but not absolute protection from near misses), possibly a higher level than a foxhole, but I'm not sure. A direct hit will of course cause significant casualties, though I don't know if the effects of shrapnel will be considered amplified for a direct hit on a trench/foxhole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fieldmarshall Posted January 24, 2002 Share Posted January 24, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TSword: Will the build prize for a trench tile depend on the underlying ground ? It's much harder to dig in frozen ground (In fact one has to rely excessively on explosives, but quite easy in the spring/summer month on soft soil. Can the trenches be leveled/detroyed by heavy arty fire -> Give less and less cover after consecutive hits near misses ? What are in general the possible effects of mid - heavy arty on trenches and their poor inhabitants ?<hr></blockquote> This is unlikely to be modeled now. The code is being modified of course. I doubt that at the moment, we will see a massively detailed trench, with every god damned little tiny tinney winney itty bitty detail. We shall see, I am sure that trench detail will be enhanced with the CM: BB engine re-write. Who knows. Trenches or no trenches, CM: BB will be well worth the wait. Just to fight with all that neeto equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Havermeyer- Posted January 24, 2002 Share Posted January 24, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Big Time Software: This is 100% unavoidable given the limitations of the CM game engine. We know some people won't like this (as they didn't like the foxholes), so we are ready to see a few complaints about the visuals. We are also ready to say "you don't think the graphics are up to Quake standards? Fine, they aren't. But the other choice was to not have them at all. Or of course you could wait about 5 years when we have rewritten the game engine and revisit the Eastern Front" Steve<hr></blockquote> 5 YEARS!!!! I CAN'T WAIT THAT LONG!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priest Posted January 24, 2002 Share Posted January 24, 2002 5 years for the Eastern front, hmm does that mean about two for CMIII and then one for CMIV and one for CM V (the revision for the Eastern Front)? If not and the re-write is going to take 5 years then i only have one thing to say............ Where can I pre-order? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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