CMBB: Where are the Polish units?

[Bruno Weiss]

But what about the Mexicans?

[Schrullenhaft]

To contribute to the further unraveling of this thread...

"Badges... ? We don't need no stinkin' badges!"

[Simon Fox]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

Hey Guys, lets take the time to read Charles's first post he has had time to make in the past 10 months...it should put an end to this debate

Gee Dan, surely you don't think the fact the question has been answered is gonna make any difference.

[Darwin]

[grovel]Praise to the coder[grovel/]

[109 Gustav]

Originally posted by Bruno Weiss:

But what about the Mexicans?

They were going to be in, but their truck broke down on the way to the battle. They are modeled as off-map units, like arty.

[duckforcover]Runs away faster than a sherm that just saw a hetzer and thought it was a king tiger[/duckforcover]

[Panzer Leader]

I was just reading that A Spanish Division fought around Mga (Leningrad front) until '43 as well as a battalion of Flanders (Flanderin?) volunteers. The Flanders unit was wiped out in the winter of '32 defending the Mga railhead. I believe the SPanish division was relieved.

[Seanachai]

Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

I was just reading that A Spanish Division fought around Mga (Leningrad front) until '43 as well as a battalion of Flanders (Flanderin?) volunteers. The Flanders unit was wiped out in the winter of '32 defending the Mga railhead. I believe the SPanish division was relieved.

The Spanish division was relieved? What did they have against those poor bloody Belgians?

[Tiger]

Niech zyje Wojsko Polskie!

[Mord]

Well Charles doesn't get much time to say stuff on this here BB but when he does, man he is to the point. And boy what good news he dropped on us.

Mord.

[easy-v]

How about non-soviet Poles?

I would love to play some scenarios of "Free" Poles vs. invading Soviets.

It always strikes me as odd that people forget (or intentionally NOT mention) that the Soviets invaded Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia (they always remember Finland, though).

BFD? Right? Well, maybe it can be developed as a niche wargaming sector. Like the battle of France in 1940 sort of used to be. France `40 always was looked as a walkover and rarely received any attention from the wargaming community until, IMHO, Crescendo of Doom (I think that's what it was). Let's see some Sino-Pole action in '39. I am certain that the Poles gave a good accounting of themselves (quick-somebody provide some examples, as I don't have any-due to lack of research) against the Soviets in 1939.

[Thin Red Line]

Speaking of French, I am not aware about any french units fighting in Russia. Except Mormandia-Neman, of course. Were there any???

Besides the French from Eastern part of France annexed in 1940 who were forced to join the Wermacht, there was a French volunteer Waffen SS unit called Legion des Volontaires Francais.

This unit fought alongside of German forces on the Eastern front. They were among the last defenders of Berlin, holding out in the ruins of the Reichstag.

[hellfish]

Originally posted by KwazyDog:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Big Time Software:

The Poles will be in CMBB. Repeat WILL BE in CMBB.

Charles

Hey Guys, lets take the time to read Charles's first post he has had time to make in the past 10 months...it should put an end to this debate

Dan</font>

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Seanachai:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

I was just reading that A Spanish Division fought around Mga (Leningrad front) until '43 as well as a battalion of Flanders (Flanderin?) volunteers. The Flanders unit was wiped out in the winter of '32 defending the Mga railhead. I believe the SPanish division was relieved.

The Spanish division was relieved? What did they have against those poor bloody Belgians?</font>

[Bruno Weiss]

Yes truly, to be in the same thread as God and a Programmer is almost overwhelming.

[IronChef4]

so, um. . . .are the Poles in CMBB?

[xerxes]

The Poles, despite propoganda to the contrary, gave a very good account of themselves in '39 against both the German and the Soviets. The Germans lost 25% of their tanks in the short Polish campaign. The Polish mistakenly defended "forward" near the German/Polish border. They did this because of the mutual defense treaty with France and Great Britain. The treaty stated that if Germany invaded Poland that the French and the British would attack German immediately. Thus, the Poles assumed that a forward defense would be appropriate. Of course the French sat on their hands and afterwards criticized the Poles relentlessly. It was the first big wanking of the Poles by their "allies". The last wanking, of course, was Yalta.

Defending forward was certainly the Poles biggest error in the '39 campaign.

If you read the battle accounts of the Poles you may come to believe that they were some of the finest soldiers in WWII. Their action in the Falaise Pocket and in Monte Cassino demonstrated a toughness that few can match.

In any case, I'm extremely pleased to hear they will be included in CMBB.

-marc

[M Hofbauer]

Gud: Thanks for the rundown, very informative, and with an entertaining style (loved the comment about the Narodowe Sily Zbrojne

Originally posted by Big Time Software:

The Poles will be in CMBB. Repeat WILL BE in CMBB.

Charles

...on which side?

Polish "Hilfswillige" in the Wehrmacht would eb easy to do, all you need is the regular german uniform and an armband "Im Dienste der Deutschen Wehrmacht".

Btw, on a more serious note, if we are going to have the Poles in the Red Army (I presume), then what about the estnische, lettische, litauische, weißruthenische Sicherungseinheiten, what about the Russen and Weissrussen in the Russische Befreiungsarmee, the Ukrainische Befreiungsheer, the Georgische, Aserbaidschanische, Armenische, Turkestanische, Nordkaukasische (Bergkaukasische), Wolgatatarische Legion, the Don-Kosaken, Kuban-Kosaken, Terek-Kosaken, Sibir-Kosaken, the Turkmenen-, Usbeken-, Kasachen-, Kirgisen-, Karakalpaken-, Tadschiken-, Kalmüken-, Aserbaidschaner-, Armenier-, Georgier-, Tscherkessen-, Adiger-, Kabardiner-, Abchasen-, Karatschaier-, Balkaren-, Nord-Osseten-, Inguschen-, Tschetschenen-, Gadestaner- and Baschkiren-Einheiten, and not to forget the Krim- and the Wolga-Tartaren, on the German side?

[Michael Dorosh]

Markus, I hope you are trying to be silly - weren't Hiwis parcelled out to regular German units as helpers? I didn't think they saw combat as formed units. You are joking, yes?

xerxes - excellent post. I think there were political considerations also - withdrawing to defendable river lines would have meant leaving half of Poland in German hands from the getgo. As I posted in the thread concerning my interview with a German veteran - he considered the Polish troops in 1939 tougher and better fighters than anyone else he saw action against - including French, British, American and Russian.

The Polish Army of 1939 was thoroughly professional.

[Boris Balaban]

Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

Gud: Thanks for the rundown, very informative, and with an entertaining style (loved the comment about the Narodowe Sily Zbrojne

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Big Time Software:

The Poles will be in CMBB. Repeat WILL BE in CMBB.

Charles

...on which side?

Polish "Hilfswillige" in the Wehrmacht would eb easy to do, all you need is the regular german uniform and an armband "Im Dienste der Deutschen Wehrmacht".

Btw, on a more serious note, if we are going to have the Poles in the Red Army (I presume), then what about the estnische, lettische, litauische, weißruthenische Sicherungseinheiten, what about the Russen and Weissrussen in the Russische Befreiungsarmee, the Ukrainische Befreiungsheer, the Georgische, Aserbaidschanische, Armenische, Turkestanische, Nordkaukasische (Bergkaukasische), Wolgatatarische Legion, the Don-Kosaken, Kuban-Kosaken, Terek-Kosaken, Sibir-Kosaken, the Turkmenen-, Usbeken-, Kasachen-, Kirgisen-, Karakalpaken-, Tadschiken-, Kalmüken-, Aserbaidschaner-, Armenier-, Georgier-, Tscherkessen-, Adiger-, Kabardiner-, Abchasen-, Karatschaier-, Balkaren-, Nord-Osseten-, Inguschen-, Tschetschenen-, Gadestaner- and Baschkiren-Einheiten, and not to forget the Krim- and the Wolga-Tartaren, on the German side?</font>

[Skipper]

Originally posted by easy-v:

I would love to play some scenarios of "Free" Poles vs. invading Soviets.

Never heard about RKKA encountering any serious resistance in Poland. Just some small scale sabotage, basically.

By the time RKKA entered Poland, polish troops were defeated, their government was in London, and iirc a general order was out to surrender to russians without fight. By all soviet accounts, it was just a matter of moving in.

[Skipper]

I am Ukrainian; I do not know much about Ukrainians who fought in the war except that Germany had 2 Ukrainian divisions and my uncle was in one of them.

I guess, some 10 million REAL ukranians who served in the Red Army don't count?

[Michael Dorosh]

Boris - all my great grandparents were born in Ukraine, but I know practically nothing about Ukrainian history. Do you have any photos of your uncle you could share?

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Markus, I hope you are trying to be silly - weren't Hiwis parcelled out to regular German units as helpers? I didn't think they saw combat as formed units. You are joking, yes?

No, I was trying to be funny with the HiWis, having been one myself.

But indeed there were polish HiWis in the German Army. Of course that does not warrant inclusion with CMBB.

I was more serious with those other (non-Poles) nationalities I cited (please carefully read my post again, I am not talking about HiWis later in the post, but real distinctive ethnic military units). Surely you know that there were many Osttruppen within their own individual units and their own command structure and uniform/insignia/rank regulations, probably more distinctive in uniform etc. than the Poles serving with the RedArmy. And in sheer numbers there were easily more eastern troops than (since I admit I know nothing about the Polish in the RedArmy I have to stick to this thread) the original figure in this thread, and surely their quantity was comparable to the other figures given here.

Skipper,

I guess, some 10 million REAL ukranians who served in the Red Army don't count?

why do you think an Ukrainian serving in the Red Army with the russians would be a REAL Ukrainian as opposed to one serving in (e.g.) the Ukrainian Liberation Army fighting with the germans?

[Skipper]

It's a long story. I would have to start somewhere like one thousand years ago, give you a brief summary of russian history of 1000-1500 (some people say it was ukranian history mainly, but okay, it's just subtleties of terminology), then discuss in great detail the story of Polish invasion (XVII century), wars with Turks and Swedes (XVIII century), Napoleonic campaigns and from there on and on. Well, it's a long story...

Bottom line is: Ukraine was not some sort of russian colony. A mainstream ukranian in 1940s would be a soviet citizen in good standing, just like mainstream russian.

Western ukranians (those who lived within borders of pre-war Poland) were a separate story. So, a ukranian in german service would be either a misguided western ukranian, or a traitor.

Why I say misguided? It is worth remembering, what were the Nazi intentions concerning land and population of Ukraine. Plse refer to Mein Kampf for further details.

[Michael Dorosh]

So skipper, I was once asked if I was a Galician - and I know the Germans had "Galician" divisions. Is this the proper name for western Ukraine? And what other regions were there?