Russian infantry attacking - realism or a joke?

[MikeyD]

I believe Matt's intent was to do a grim, particularly un-CMBO-like scenario for dramatic effect. On the German side you see an 'endless horde' advancing on you. On the Russian side you're told to advance without cover into a wall of steel!

Even among the Beta testers it was a bit of a shock to play when it was first presented. But it does teach some valuable lessons about ammo expenditure, handling of troops, etc. etc. that'll serve you well when you finally get your hands on the full game.

[Glyph]

As someone mentioned earlier in this thread (I forget who), area fire seems quite ineffective. I recently played the Yelnia Stare (?) scenario as the russians. I had atleast 4-5 maxims and 2 mortars pouring fire into the central german position, and still my troops on the left flank (2 companies) got pinned down and routed by fire from that position.

After 15-20 turns of VERY slow progress on my left flank I had at least knocked out 2 at-guns with mortar and mg fire. I now felt confident enough to take bold action with my tanks. Up to that point I had used my tanks for area fire from the rear. I rushed the tank platoon on my left along the extreme left om the map to a position in front of my most forward troops. I gave fire arcs to two of them; one covering the nearby objective and one covering the central flag. The third tank was left to find it's on targets, just in case.

On my right flank, where the infantry only had advance to the burning wheat field, I moved the other tank platoon to the forward edge of said field.

These tank advaces remedied the situation a bit, but the infantry was still advancing too slow to reach the objectives in time. As a last effort I rushed the tank platoon on my left to within 100m of the central flag. That did the trick! As the tanks started to spot all the german infantry in that area, red targeting lines where appearing in droves! All those squads and mgs that weren't routed suddenly found something to direct their anger at! As the german fire withered, I was able to advance my infantry without too much trouble.

The scenario ended with the germans surrendering, and I actually suffered quite few casualties!

[Redwolf]

When guys say "TacAI" in this thread (as in pathfinding) they mean the computed opponent, not the TacAI, do they?

[Stormin Norman]

Originally posted by pad152:

I found that micomanagement, is the key, move up two squad (advance to contact)then keep the two shooting, while I move up the next two squads. I found they if I didn't give specific target (shoot orders) to each squad they hardly ever fired on their own.

Try that tactic with companies/plts 2 plts fire while 1-2 move.

Getting them to shoot

Try using CA, although I think the conscript Soviets are too ill-trained. Worked well for the Germans I also find my self using N(next target) more than I have had before

[Stormin Norman]

spoilers

Originally posted by Shosties4th:

*Six* T-34s won't even get a single German squad or MG team to put their heads down. Fire of all units is virtually ineffective, and no matter how much trouble a German squad makes, it never become more than a sound contact. What gives?

You need to get them closer, canister close. I basically won the scenario with my tanks, German surrendered/dead before my infantry had gotten 1/2 across map.

I never moved my mg/motars which massivly surpressed any German ATG/team/squad/foxhole that got ID'd then a tank or 2 hunted to within about 30-40m 1 cansiter round fired, rinse and repeat.

lost one tank

[bobnickbob]

Thank one and all for these posts.......

after the first few times I played this Demo ,

I was thinking How did the Germans Loose ?

but after reading this thread I was able to MAKE the ruskys

do some damage.

Great Game

BnickB

[Dallas]

One description of a Russian infantry attack that comes from Lucas in War on the Eastern Front says...

"I can never forget the first mass attack by Russian infantry which I experienced Just after we came into the line during August 1941..." The same time period as the Yelnia Stare CMBB scenario.

..."The Soviet assaults on the other hand, were carried out by masses of men who made no real attempt at concealment but trusted in sheer weight of numbers to overwhelm us"...

..."The lines of men stretched to the right and left of our regimental front overlapping it completely and the whole mass of Russian troops came tramping relentlessly and solidly forward"...

It goes on to describe how the later waves of Russians continued clambering over their piles of dead to continue the assault etc...

With the current modelling of infantry in CMBB as seen in the demo, it will be impossible to set up a historically accurate Russian infantry attack scenario such as this. Given the attention to historical detail in all other areas, this seems odd.

Perhaps the incidents I have read about are isolated but interesting and thus more saleable book material and the vast majority of Russian troops did behave as the demo Russians... anyone care to comment?

[PeterX]

Dallad posted:

With the current modelling of infantry in CMBB as seen in the demo, it will be impossible to set up a historically accurate Russian infantry attack scenario such as this. Given the attention to historical detail in all other areas, this seems odd.

I was looking all over the net to find a passage like this! Good for you.

The Russian troops in the Yelnia scenario are too deficient in morale to get any where near duplicating the phenmenon described in your story. Which isn't fatal, since they're unnecessary to winning the battle, at least against the AI. The tanks can do it alone. I did it twice by Hiding all the grunts during the setup phase and leaving them there.

I don't think even inflating the Plt HQs to Morale +2 would have been enough to get a significant # of Russkis within bayonet length of the German MLR. Maybe a handful of stragglers.

The 'Fanatical' rating wasn't much used in CMBO, let's hope it's not AWOL in the full version of CMBB where it's really needed.

I'm surprised, frankly, that BFC released such a strange, unsatisfying scenario for the demo. What happened to their Quality Control? Of course, that didn't stop me from pre-ordering. I have faith based on past experience.

[ September 09, 2002, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: PeterX ]

[gunnergoz]

My experience as the Russian was similar to most posts here. One thing I did that helped was I used the Company Commanders to manage all those little 50mm mortar assets, leaving them and the Maxims back in the start tree line. They pretty well killed off anything that the tanks flushed out.

My infantry got chopped up by the initial German mortar fire and the conscript parts never really recovered despite the battalion commander's best efforts. The more experienced, tougher infantry slogged forward and helped take out the depleted Germans in front of them.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Dallas:

With the current modelling of infantry in CMBB as seen in the demo, it will be impossible to set up a historically accurate Russian infantry attack scenario such as this.

I actually think Yelnia Stare is pretty historical. In Real Life Soviet tanks managed to get through the German lines (I have provided some (less dramatic) evidence on this in a thread on the now CMBO board). Soviet infantry really did not. In the end the Germans had to withdraw, but it was no rout. It was, as the briefing tells us correctly, the first operational defeat of the Wehrmacht. On the tactical level though, the Germans were largely unbeaten - it was just that they could not simultaneously close the Kiev pocket and hold the Yelnia salient.

In realistic terms, once the Soviets manage to defeat the Germans in Yelnia Stare, you would expect their division to scratch together some cooks and drivers, with maybe a bit of artillery, and counter-attack, driving the Soviets out again. But that is another scenario.

I think the scenario does this depict the sort of fighting in the salient quite well. If you of course believe that Paul Schmidt (aka Carrell) or James Lucas purvey true unadulterated history, you will disagree.

[Wol]

spoiler warning

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I got creamed on the tutorial, 5 shots in 40 seconds knocked out both tanks at 340m. Everyone then fired (and I mean everyone) on the PAK, it died on the 25th turn!

I won the other two quite easily in the end.

IMHO I think we should get used to green and conscript troops. In CMBO My americans are mostly green, the brits and germans rarely more than regular. I also think that most soldiers are just trying not to get killed. Their is a tendency to think the 'norm' is 'regular', with all vaguely special troops as crack or better. This tends to make for poor results when you use the great unleavened mass. In old WRG terms, most inf are Regular D.

BTW why no T34m41 command tanks for platoon leaders, and no smoke for KV1S?

cheers

[PeterX]

Andreas posted:

I think the scenario does this depict the sort of fighting in the salient quite well.

Then why can the player win it with tanks alone? Why include inf at all? And be honest. Did you have fun? Are you stll playing it? I'm not. IMO, it's just a poorly designed scenario that bodes ill for the full version.

The nub is that you're not commanding regulars, greens and conscripts. If you check out the Readme, you're really commanding greens, conscripts, and sub-conscripts. The nomenclature isn't congruent for both sides till '44. And yes, sometimes Russian troops behaved like this and sometimes they didn't.

The scary thing is that I believe the designer aspired to depict a Human Wave assault and failed in the attempt. Maybe a Borg level player who's anal-retentive enough to get down to Level 1 and scope out every tiny undulation in the terrain for cover MIGHT be able to push a few depleted platoons up to the German line. Too labor intensive for me. And you don't need the inf anyway.

[Andreas]

Peter - first of all, the full version has a QB and scenario editor that will enable you to do all that you missed in this one, and get it 'right'.

Secondly, read my post above - Soviet tanks broke through the German lines. Soviet infantry did not really. Now I understand this is what happens in playing the scenario too. You would need the infantry to secure the position against counter-attack. You need it to protect your tanks. I'll try to see what happens with a tank only attack tonight, and post the results here.

I played it, as Germans PBEM. Not at all an enjoyable experience if what you like is a balanced game, and I believe my opponent did not really enjoy whipping his Soviets into shape. Certainly enjoyable for me because it felt very historical - which is the reason why I love this game.

[Dallas]

Originally posted by Andreas:

I think the scenario does this depict the sort of fighting in the salient quite well. If you of course believe that Paul Schmidt (aka Carrell) or James Lucas purvey true unadulterated history, you will disagree.

[Andreas]

Peter - and I forgot to mention. To alleviate one of your concerns, in the full version 'fanaticism' is still an option. Can't remember now if it is different from CMBO, so it probably is not. I do not know if the Soffjets (German in-joke) are fanatical in Yelnia Stare or not. I can check tonight though, if Steve does not mind.

[Dallas]

Originally posted by Andreas:

I think the scenario does this depict the sort of fighting in the salient quite well. If you of course believe that Paul Schmidt (aka Carrell) or James Lucas purvey true unadulterated history, you will disagree.

Sorry for the double post. Andreas, I am not sure if the source Lucas is accurate or not, but I have read other similar accounts and I find it hard to believe that it never happened.

It may be that the fighting in this particular scenario (Yelnia Stare) is portrayed accurately, but without the option to robotically send your troops forward, you cannot create a historical scenario as described by Lucas' source, or others for that matter.

Because its not included is not a game killer by any means. I'm just wondering why its not there.

[nijis]

I tried infantry-only and tank-only Russian attack vs the AI. The infantry one, naturally, I lost, but I suffered acceptably moderate casualties (56) and managed to inflict 12, mostly by small arms fire, and pushed the line almost to the German foxholes. If the game were an operation, the push would have netted me an acceptable jump-off point for the next attack.. It felt realistic, anyway.

The tank attack I'm less sure about. I lost most of them eventually -- one to the AT guns and four to infantry attack, as I recall -- but I was being deliberately careless, driving up right next to the woods to sniff out infantry and whatnot. Buttoned-up, radioless tanks could still coordinate attacks, even if they had to wait a minute or two due to command delays, and could motor up and down the line of foxholes swiftly acquiring and dispatching any infantry who might pop up to trouble them. I can hardly claim to be an Eastern Front grog, but it doesn't seem to mesh with the descriptions of visibilty from within a buttoned T-34 that you read about in this forum.

I hadn't hidden my infantry, however, so maybe the tanks benefited from having a battalion a few hundred meters away spotting for them. It's probably not possible to get the infantry/armor balance of power just right for every circumstance, especially prior to the introduction of relative spotting.

[ September 09, 2002, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: nijis ]

[tabpub]

2 experiences with Yelnia

First time, took the Germans with default positions. Gave commands to only the MG teams and the 37's. Rest remained hidden and only fired when they thought best. 37's got 2 T34's before being KO'd. End result German tac victory.

Reason: the AI is still not a good attacker as the armor would not press the attack.

Second time, took the Russian side, allowed the German to free set up. Germans played merry hell on the initial infantry advance. One 37 opened up and was apparently ko'd, but we kept up an area fire on it just in case. As the infantry was tied down, the little voice said, "Send in the armor!" All 6 34's advanced with arcs on, blazing away. The other atg, cunningly hidden by the AI on the far left (attack perspective) nailed all 3 34's of one platoon before the other platoon could aquire and kill it. The remaining 3 34's roamed the field, one assigned to each "wooded" area. One, watching the right hand woods was immob'd by a unspotted HQ unit and bailed. End result- tac vic for the Russian side.

Overall impression- as usual play against a human for the best feel, since the AI in general cannot improvise or adapt to the situation. Armor vs infantry, while powerful, now has a fragility and lack of "instant" response that is pleasingly accurate. IMHO.

[killmore]

My feeling is that HE fire is underpowered.

In CMBB MGs are now more realistic but HE is still very weak!

In Italian campaign Germans claimed that 80% of US casualties were result of mortar fire (from history channel)

There is no way you could achieve this in CM...

Is is increadible that german infantry bombarded by 2 tanks (guns and MGs) and 3 mortart has no casualties - even if all round fall right there between them...

This might be a problem with modeling all troops being in a single point instead of being somewhat spread out. If they are spread out over small area (say 10 meters) then even miss of 5 meters should hurt someone.

Anyway I have no idea how HE hits are modeled so maybe I am way off. Anyway too many HE hits result in no casualties.

[kunstler]

It feels realistic, at least from what I have read and how I'd feel about walking/running at entrenched machine guns over open terrain.

It's hell trying to get those guys forward within the time limit. Thank goodness for variable end times and those tanks. I have finally managed to win it. Using the artillery for smoke helped in the initial run forward.

The demo scenarios have churned up a storm of anger and I don't want to add to that; I don't mean this as a criticism of the game here, nor am I asking for more demos.

I found Yelnia extremely difficult and, yeah, laborious to play (obviously compared to CMBO, where it was, or at least felt, easier), but I imagine that's closer to how you properly advance in real combat (than in CMBO).

It's quite an adjustment. I think the difficulty of it, with morale (not often modelled in games), will be hard for some new gamers to deal with. Those brave enough will find a lot of game behind it. Perhaps it's like the modern flight sim, hard to initially get into/adjust to.

I'm looking forward to the full version. I'll learn more about the Eastern Front and how combat worked/flowed/happened there than I ever wanted to!

kunstler

[Guest PondScum]

Originally posted by killmore:

My feeling is that HE fire is underpowered.

In CMBB MGs are now more realistic but HE is still very weak!

In Italian campaign Germans claimed that 80% of US casualties were result of mortar fire (from history channel)

There is no way you could achieve this in CM...

My German 81mm FO inflicted 50 casualties and knocked out 5 mortars in Yelnia, and that was with a reduced ammo load-out.

Seems good enough to me...

[Shosties]

I know it is no longer "hip" to refer to von Mellenthin's "Panzer Battles", but he wrote that a vital element of combating the Soviet numerical superiority in infantry was "fire discipline", which I have heard interpereted as good old-fashioned Washingtonian "don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes". Opening up with your MGs on troops human waving in the open at close range is the only way to guarentee that men are actually killed and wounded rather than just pinned. Firing early just ensures the men hug the earth and eventually crawl forwards in strength (though this might be hard to cajole sub-conscripts into doing).

Imagine if the Yelnia Stare scenario was extended in time, you could then comfortably sneak your horde into close combat range and deal the Germans a defeat without relying on the T-34s (as I think someone here has actually managed to do even within the given time limit). Has anyone, playing as the Germans, tried holding back on the MGs and letting that horde come close (I know, talk about nerve wracking) and then letting them have it just before they are close enough to sight or toss grenades?

[PeterX]

Kunstler posted:

It's hell trying to get those guys forward within the time limit. Thank goodness for variable end times and those tanks. I have finally managed to win it. Using the artillery for smoke helped in the initial run forward.

Repeat: you don't need the infantry to win this scenario. They're as superfluous as the Pope's pudenda.

[Shosties]

[Oops. Double post.]

[ September 09, 2002, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: Shosties4th ]

[Tiger]

This is the third time I've played this demo scenario, 1st time as Germans I won handily, second time as Soviets I quit after a couple turns (low attention span), this third time I played it all the way through. Gave the Germans free setup.

Used the conscripts in the center to draw mortar fire, ran regulars up the map sides with T-34s proceeding them by a couple of turns. Massed most of my mortars and maxims together to lay down area fire.

By the end of the battle every one of my conscript squads were reformed and moving up the center towards the center flag.

The causulties I took came almost all from the left flank regular infantry as they made their final advance to rout the German right flank.

Not too shabby

-john

[ September 09, 2002, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: Tiger ]