Am I playing against a whiner named Edited?

[Michael Dorosh]

So I get this email from a dude (or at least, I guess he's a dude, not that it matters) saying he wants to PBEM. Never heard of him before, he doesn't give a name. I figure why not. He drops a name from the forum at me, kinda bragging about how he beat said name in a recent PBEM and is also winning another PBEM at the moment.

(There is a whole psychiatric discussion in itself, btw - why he felt the need to tell me how great he is off the bat...)

So I say yeah, sure, but I don't like MEs, let's play a QB. He had already insisted on playing German (there's another discussion, too, but let's give him the benefit of the doubt and suppose he is simply more experienced playing the German side, or perhaps is tired of playing as Allies), so I say fine, I will attack, send me a setup.

So then I get the following terrain and forces:

Okay, he has already mumbled about the computer making "weird picks" but I figure if he is dissatisfied, he will opt not to play the game. He says nothing, and I am less than satisfied, thinking he has picked sparse trees and minimal hills, but what the heck, it's just a game and the attacker does get a numerical advantage.

I have 2 company headquarters, 8 infantry platoons (with PIATs and 2 inch mortars), 2 M5 halftracks, a white scout car, a Humber, two Stuarts, and two 3 inch spotters - plus the piece de resistance - a Churchill VIII, with only 39 rounds of HE and 8 © rounds.

So, my opening thoughts are these;

a) firstly, group the 2 inch mortars under the two company commanders, where they will do more good than trying to keep up to the platoons. 2 smoke shells ain't much good, but if you have a whole battery of 2 inch mortars firing either smoke or HE, you have some power there

to mask my intentions, half the mortars go on the extreme right, where there is some cover. One platoon to go with them, another platoon in the centre of the map, as a reserve. The rest of the infantry on the far left

c) Main effort will be on the far left, with the board edge securing my left flank. The 3 inch spotters will call smoke to cover my right flank, and I will advance to the trees halfway across the board - that will keep my right flank still secure, and I can sweep through the trees with my infantry, using the vehicles to cover them and vice versa

So the game starts off ok - he has a Hetzer in plain sight, but I am not committing my Churchill yet - lost too much armour far too fast to try anything stupid. I advance on the left with 3 or 4 platoons, leaving the other 4 in reserve for the moment. I lose two halftracks and the White during my opening rush (too impatient to wait for the barrage...call me impetuous), but I have to laugh out loud...HAHAHAHAHHA - his Hetzer is a damn CONSCRIPT!!!!! BWAHAHAHAHH...uhhh...waitaminit....

(Okay, and here is the reason I suck at CM - I don't look my forces over before the game. Don't bother seeing which HQs have which bonuses, don't check the experience or alert level, just bash on like there's no tomorrow. And it is at this moment I notice my troops are all green and conscript also...when he calls arty down on my troops advancing on the left, and they all break at the mere HINT of a shell landing nearby!!!!)

So, I mention to my opponent his Hetzer is a conscript - he says nothing, and I ain't gonna quibble - I mention I've never played with all green and conscript before, it is quite challenging. It never occurs to me to back out of the game - who is it on the board that always says in their sig if you want a realistic game "play green troops"? So I decide to forge ahead, see if my abysmal showing in the Invitational, and my recent unbeaten PBEM streak, have taught me anything.

The attack goes well on the left; I lose a Stuart to a panzerschreck, but his troops break and run when I manage to bring firepower down on them - his arty barrage is brief, as he shifts fire (with a green observer, it takes a long time, as I am finding out with my 3 inch mortars also). My infantry is able to make it across the board and secure one of the large flags.

It is now somewhere around turn 20 (of 30), my victory total is 30% and I am pressing on the other two objectives with fragile troops, but the Churchill takes out his Hetzer. He still has several 20mm guns and 3 halftracks (comically grouped behind one small building for cover!), and I have lots of open ground to cover. But my reserve platoon has moved up the middle of the board, and I'm thinking I've behaved pretty well, tactically - 9 or so turns to go, and it will be a test to see if my green and conscript troops have the ability to make it over open ground and seize the last two flags; he has plenty of firepower left, including 2 fully crewed HMGs, some infantry, and 3 halftracks (one armed with a 20mm) - that I know about.

I get a message around turn 15 or so with a turn file - "that Churchill breaks the 95 rule"

Huh?

I tell him with my next turn that I am familiar with Fionn's rules (the 76 ones) but have never heard of the 95 rule - can he please explain.

He goes silent, but keeps sending turns.

He then says

are 100% of your troops green? I have all conscripts myself. this is the

last game i ever play that allows the computer to pick forces. its been fun

but the churchill thing is just obnoxious

huh?

I reply with

Green and conscript, not one single regular or better. I must admit, it IS

a bit funny to see three of your halftracks trying to hide behind one

house...(!) This game will be won by infantry, not my Churchill, and my

troops are damn brittle...anything can happen

I then get the following back

Sorry not interested, maybe a game sometime where i can pick some decent

troops

And that's it!

Two days I spend emailing through 20 turns - I have asked for a surrender file, hopefully he will send it.

Now, several questions

a) can one tank with 39 HE shells really spell the difference between victory and defeat in a 30 turn game with roughly two companies on either side?

we have discussed etiquette before - if you agree to computer picks, you pretty much have to realize the computer has never heard of Fionn Kelly, or of a 95 rule, or knows what any individual's idea of fair or "obnoxious" is

c) doesn't a decent player play through to completion once he's committed to a game - even if it means submitting to a surrender?

Finally - given my attacking force, and presuming the terrain above and the following

a) Hetzer 38(t)

at least one PzSchreck

c) 3 halftracks

d) at least 2 platoons of motorized infantry

e) at least 3 20mm guns

f) at least 1 arty spotter

g) at least 2 HMGs

h) at least one other "light" gun (probably 20mm)

Is it possible to create a viable defence against my force? In other words - does he have any kick coming? It seemed to me he scattered his 20mm guns to hell and gone, and opened up WAY too early on me, allowing my mortars to range in on him - though in all honesty, I don't think my 2 inch mortars actaully caused any casualties.

It is possible that that TacAI, using Green troops, opened up too early despite his orders, I suppose - so factor that into your answers, please!

If I don't hear from this guy again, should his name be made public - or has he acted fairly?

[ April 09, 2002, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Frenchy]

It's always been my philosophy that if you start a game, you finish it. Either through completion of all the turns or surrender.

I have a sneaky suspicion he won't send the surrender file. I don't think the name should be published unless he repeats the pattern against other players.

Hard to say what the TacAI would do with completely green or conscript troops. I have to admit that I have not played with a force that was all green.

As for the Churchill causing havoc with his troops - it's possible I guess, but unlikely in my opinion unless he kept everything bunched up.

[Hoopenfaust2]

Hitler never sent his surrender turn. That sounds kinda gamey

With all those german troops (probably with some panzerfausts), you could take out that churchill, just don't engage it. I would whine, but I would still try to take it out until the bitter end.

Cheers

[Michael Emrys]

Full disclosure time: Anything I say in this post must be read in light of the fact that I don't engage in competitive play, okay?

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

a) can one tank with 39 HE shells really spell the difference between victory and defeat in a 30 turn game with roughly two companies on either side?

Sure. But it depends on the siruation and how the tank is used.

we have discussed etiquette before - if you agree to computer picks, you pretty much have to realize the computer has never heard of Fionn Kelly, or of a 95 rule, or knows what any individual's idea of fair or "obnoxious" is

Obviously true.

c) doesn't a decent player play through to completion once he's committed to a game - even if it means submitting to a surrender?

I should think so...but see disclaimer at beginning.

Finally - given my attacking force, and presuming the terrain above and the following

a) Hetzer 38(t)

at least one PzSchreck

c) 3 halftracks

d) at least 2 platoons of motorized infantry

e) at least 3 20mm guns

f) at least 1 arty spotter

g) at least 2 HMGs

Is it possible to create a viable defence against my force?

Definitely.

If I don't hear from this guy again, should his name be made public - or has he acted fairly?

While I couldn't say that he has behaved in a very responsible way towards you at this point, there are some things worth considering. Everything in his behavior as you report it indicates that he is certainly inexperienced and may additionally be young. He neither knows how to conduct a very well-played battle, nor quite how to act with regard to his opponent. I stongly suspect based on what you describe that he has a major ego-investment in winning and winning handily. When confronted with a new situation, his morale collapsed and he doesn't know quite how to handle that.

If he reads your report, you will have definitely given him something to think about. In light of all that, it might be best to wait a while to see if his conduct improves or if he is just another incorrigible asshole. If the latter, there will be plenty of time to expose him assuming that he hasn't already removed himself from the CM community in frustration at not being able to master the game.

JMO

Michael

[ April 07, 2002, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: Michael emrys ]

[S.Sgt. Havilandt]

What in the world is the #95 rule?

[Echo]

Rule #95 says "I'm a limp wristed wimp". I remember reading it somewhere.

[Redwolf]

Hm, did you agree that both of you play with low (or random) quality forces beforehand?

This is fishy, especially in attack/defense.

As for the game itself, sounds about fair It is actually a game where the real battle is to trick the Churchill into shooting all its ammo on less important targets and/or exploit its slow speed. Intresting game.

[Brian]

I have my suspiciouns that terrain is not a natural choice, Michael. I'd also suggest that your opponent once he'd tried to rig things his way with a billard table, suddenly found that he should have made the game human choice, with lots of long-rang AT weapons but he'd fluffed it, it would appear.

Just goes to prove that infantry is still queen of the battlefield. Good tactics will usually overcome most defences, no matter what the forces are involved.

No, I wouldn't recommend making their name public. However, warn them that if you hear of any more such tricks, you will do so.

[Croda]

Hey, Michael.

Looking at the maps you posted, are you sure it wasn't an Assault game? The flags seem awfully far back.

I'd venture to say that your opponent was an inexperienced lackwit who tried to act important figuring that your WWII knowledge must transfer to a mastery at CM, and thus he needed to be a high quality opponent to get your attention.

He probably had little to no idea what he was doing, and if this was an assault game, then he had less of a chance than you may have originally thought.

As for the '95' rule: Anyone who would pick random forces and then claim that a unit selected violated some random rule probably still wears diapers to bed and listens intently on Christmas Eve for hoofs on his roof.

[Sir Uber General]

He a whinger.

If you dont tell us who he is and he rigs my match then he sooks about it and runs, how are we to know if it is the same person?

Also note I doubt age and experience count for anything when it comes to whinging... I was "a f*ck" and told to "f*ck off" a number of times by a t-house top 5 player just last week, simply because I had not chosen a conventional force, and he did not like it...

Cheers

[RMC]

Perhaps his "95 rule" refers to the big brewhaha over the performance of the 95mm gun on the Churchill VIII. There was some lengthy discussion about it being overpowered against tanks at least.

[Andrew H.]

Yeah, he's a whiner, and he probably should have told you he was planning on choosing low quality troops and an open battlefield, but I don't think he actually cheated.

I do have a couple of observations about your game in my capacity as Official Green Troops Cheerleader, though .

The main thing about green troops is that your really need to use them pretty historically you have to make sure that the enemy is suppressed by using lots of arty, and you have to attack almost in a set piece battle kind of way (i.e., wait for your support weapons to catch up, wait for all attacking units to reach the start line before attacking, make sure you have a reserve, etc.). Most importantly, you need to have a coherent plan - just throwing out a couple of platoons to see what happens won't work well with green troops. (I don't really use conscripts much, but it must be even more important for them).

For all of these reasons, the more experienced player will have a greater benefit using green troops.

Having said that, though, the hardest thing to do with green troops is advance across the open. MGs may be undermodeled in CM for some purposes, but they can reliably stop advancing green troops in the open at 500 meters.

So this guy could have easily held out against your attacking force. I think he should have split his forces into two groups, each with a HMG. This would permit interlocking fields of fire in the middle of the map, but each team could have broken up an attack down its flank. With regulars, and esp. vets, you have to bring overwhelming firepower on units to have a real effect: you have to essentially kill a bunch of the guys before they become unfit for combat. This is not the case with greens - just being fired at by a MG will often cause them to stop or go to ground, and sometimes units with only 2 or three casualties will be broken and "!". Of course, you want to try and do this at a distance while the enemy is in the open, since the defenders' troops are also brittle (although they are much better off in foxholes and cover).

The defender should probably have also put a 20mm gun on each flank to look for armored cars, and perhaps an MG HT behind some cover on each flank where it would be able to shoot diagonally at advancing troops in the open (assuming this is feasible). Maybe hide the Hetzer in the town with a few troops for security. Keep in mind that green troops do not spot as well as better troops.

So I think that the defender had a decent chance against you. On the other hand, your attack plan was a good one for green troops (even if you didn't notice this feature about your troops at the time). It would have been interesting to see what a more competent opponent would have done against your deliberate attack and use of smoke.

[Gyrene]

Mike, you must never reveal my name or I'll never play you again!!!

Whiiiiinnne!

It's random picks on a map HE sent you.

He's a whiner.

Gyrene

[Michael Dorosh]

Thanks for the advice guys - ok, here is a challenge. He offered to send me his password and let finish it off for myself.

If I give my word I won't look at the German side, would anybody want to pick up the game on turn 22, and try and turn sure defeat into victory?

Probably a dumb idea, but I hate to just waste the whole game. If anyone is interested, let me know.

Actually, I'll take on any comers, so the more the merrier. Could be interesting for me to see how different people would take up the challenge.

Email addy is madorosh@shaw.ca

I hope our friend comes through with the password...

[109 Gustav]

Sure, send me the game file along with our next PBEM. Might give me a little incentive to send you the turn in less than three days

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Thanks for the advice guys - ok, here is a challenge. He offered to send me his password and let finish it off for myself.

Did he make any comment about this discussion on the board, offer any defense of his actions, etc.?

Michael

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Thanks for the advice guys - ok, here is a challenge. He offered to send me his password and let finish it off for myself.

Did he make any comment about this discussion on the board, offer any defense of his actions, etc.?

Michael</font>

[CMplayer]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

a) can one tank with 39 HE shells really spell the difference between victory and defeat in a 30 turn game with roughly two companies on either side?

In my experience it can, but it won't do it by itself. If the tank's HE hits the critical spot, with the right timing, turn after turn to facilitate the advance of the rest of your troops then its value will be much greater than if it is just located wherever it feels safe and shoots at whatever target is available.

Also, those Churchills are quite inaccurate at range, so half its shots miss unless you get it in close (as in just outside of schreck range). So if you can keep it close to your advancing infantry, and pummel him right on his key squad/support the whole time in, then it can make all the difference in the world. Of course this isn't always possible since your opponent will be trying to thwart you in achieving this kind of synergy.

As for your other questions:

Your opponent said the computer had picked forces. But you had a _mixture_ of greens and conscripts? I thought that the computer always picked just one single experience level. Sounds fishy to me.

Also, how on eath can he complain to you about breaking any rule (even the archane 95 rule) if you didn't get to pick.

Finally I'd like to take a guess at his identity. Is it by any chance....never mind, I can't say it.

[Shandorf]

Those computer picked forces look whacked to me, and the map looks rigged, but it could be real. The guy is just a whiner.

Dorosh I will kick your butt with no whinning and with twice the ballsy bravado comments and obnoxious barbs. Send me a setup.

Jeff

[CMplayer]

Another thing, you said he 'dropped a name at the forum'. Maybe he's not that guy, but just wants to discredit him.

[CMplayer]

Originally posted by Shandorf:

Dorosh I will kick your butt with no whinning and with twice the ballsy bravado comments and obnoxious barbs. Send me a setup.

You just challenged a grog! Ooh ooh! I'm tellin' on you.

[WineCape]

In this day and age, WHERE is the common decency and sportmanslike behaviour of players to finish their turns of a game started? Granted, I was guilty of this only twice due to hectic outdoor activities/schedule, but a short e-mail informing my opponent of the situation sufficed. Rule 95 probably a typo. Not that it matters Michael. A sad waste of time. Never to fear, if there is one man to make you laugh (or smile with a tear!) while playing CMBO it is Shandorf.

BTW Shandorf, please e-mail me as I have some (good) news for you

Sincerely,

Charl Theron

--------------

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."

-- Martin Luther King (1929 – 1968)

[ April 08, 2002, 04:13 AM: Message edited by: WineCape ]

[edward_n_kelly]

Originally posted by WineCape:

In this day and age, WHERE is the common decency and sportmanslike behaviour

of players to finish their turns of a game started?

Left on the fields of Flanders....

Granted, I was guilty of this only twice

Sounds like the old joke - she was only unfaithful to her husband twice - one with Harry Faversham-Smith-Halton and the other time with the Band of the Grenadier Guards!

due to hectic outdoor activities/schedule, but a short e-mail informing my opponent of the situation sufficed.

Rule 95 probably a typo. Not that it matters Michael. A sad waste of time. Never to fear, if there is one man to make you laugh (or smile with a tear!) while playing CMBO it is Shandorf.

BTW Shandorf, please e-mail me as I have some (good) news for you

Sincerely,

Charl Theron

--------------

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."

-- Martin Luther King (1929 – 1968)

Edward

[edgars]

I could be wrong here but i believe that when computer picks forces, they're either this or that experience level (i.e. either green or conscript, not a mixed type even if the Experience level switch is set to Random).

So this experience mix looks strange at least.

[Seanachai]

My gods, Grog Dorosh, your almost unbelievably detailed post about the idjit you entered into a game with was like a Combat Mission Shaggy Dog story. I couldn't believe there wasn't a punch line, then realized you led with the punchline.

"Is my opponent a whiner?"

Your opponent is a useless big girl blouse. He is vile in the sight of men, and laughable in the sight of the gods. The only thing I can fault you with on the whole, interminable discussion of your obsessively 'Canadian Nice' relationship with this halfwit is the fact that you actually fell into such a dilemma of despond that you sought out the opinions of the Tower of Babel that is the Forum.

My reassurance to you is: Your Opponent is not only a whiner, he's not even an entertaining whiner. In the Peng Challenge Thread, people like this would normally be hunted down and culled in the hopes of improving the species.

My request of you is: I can't imagine this one even remotely comes from us, but if he did, please email me discreetly with his name, so that I can see that he's terminated with extreme prejudice. Although I can't imagine it's even possible.

Finally, where's my turn you Canadian rotter?! I sent you the setup days ago, and I haven't seen ****e since!

Respond, or do somefink!

[ April 08, 2002, 05:01 AM: Message edited by: Seanachai ]