Initial Impressions of Strategy Guide

[Andreas]

Originally posted by kipanderson:

As we speak, I just drove a battalion of T34s into a minefield set by Andreas, the humiliation of it !

Happily, I have a cunning plan .

1) Kip drives lots of T34 and T70 into minefield

2) Kip comes up with cunning plan - drive more T34s and T70s into minefield

3) Kip decides to become an energy trader

The end.

[Terrapin]

Originally posted by Leutnant Hortlund:

Well, personally Im not gonna buy the book. I am of the opinion that some of the stuff in the book should have been in the manual.

Good for you, man. It's impressive that people in this day and age are willing to stand up for a few important principles that they believe in, instead of caving into corporate greed. I salute you.

[Ultraman]

Stuff like how units recover morale is something that belongs more in a game manual than in a tips&tricks book.

I can see his point.

Nevertheless, I'm having a great time reading this thing, typos and all! A nice addition, methinks.

[Moon]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

So they can sell us a strategy guide, of course.

Michael[/QB]

Not quite correct The manual is massive as is at 260+ pages, and there is simply just so much that can be stuffed within. Gameplay basics, interface, installation, how to use the editor and so on have priority. Unit data and tactics were left out because this information is available from a host of other (better and more comprehensive) sources AND gameplay experience.

Some particular gameplay mechanics were left out on purpose, also, to keep them "fuzzy" - for two main reasons: a) because the game mechanics themselves are fuzzy, meaning that a chart or table is not going to capture what really is going on under the hood. because CM was designed to reward intuitive play rather than analyzing minuscle details.

But, and I admit that without hesitation, some things were also left out due to oversight. It is easy to "forget" details here and there for a game as complex as CM. Hehe, I forgot to mention craters and cemeteries as terrain features for example. And sometimes even Charles has to "look up the code" to remember some particular game mechanics.

The Guide isn't essential to play the game, so the money-making scheme just doesn't add up. Plus, if that was the main intention, we'd have charged $25 for it. Of course we want to turn a profit as a company, so we're not going to give it away for free. But the main intention was to provide extra info to those that want it, and obviously we're going to use the space to also touch upon things which were left out of the manual - for whatever reason...

Martin

[Terrapin]

And God knows, it's highly unusual to release a strategy/tips book for a game. I can't think of another game that has one. My local Best Buy certainly doesn't stock two whole shelves full of them, that's for sure.

[Michael Emrys]

'S'okay, Martin. I plan to buy the book. But I think maybe I'll wait until the second edition so I won't have to wade through so many typos. Of course, if you were to send me a review copy, I'd be happy to proofread it for you.

Michael

[Moon]

Well, I'm still waiting for my own copy to arrive to check the typos, which could take a little since the European warehouse is sold out...

Martin

[aka_tom_w]

"Some particular gameplay mechanics were left out on purpose, also, to keep them "fuzzy" - for two

main reasons: a) because the game mechanics themselves are fuzzy, meaning that a chart or table is

not going to capture what really is going on under the hood. because CM was designed to reward

intuitive play rather than analyzing minuscle details."

OK then!

That was sorta what I meant when I said they make it that way so players have to figure it out for themselves playing and actually gaining experience with the game and the "system".

This concept is VERY interesting for me because I fully support the fact that NO units in the game EVER carry over and gain more experience as there is no campaign layer HOWEVER the player can and WILL advance from a conscript level of in-game performance to a veteran, crack or Elite level of game play in short order if you play the game enough and learn your lessons from experience. (OK reading this forum helps alot too!)

I think they should give the game away free and just charge a monthly fee for access to this forum, it might prove EVEN more profitable. (I know they won't do this, that's why I mentioned it, because if they did I would not be able to afford to play CMBB or CMBO I think that goes DOUBLE for some others here (e.g. Redwolf, Andreas etc..)

-tom w

[Mace]

Originally posted by SirLoinOfBeef:

Looks like the suits are trying to get their piece of the Christmas pie.

Nothing wrong with that. If Battlefront never turned a profit with CMBO we wouldn't have had CMBB.

Mace

[Mykol]

$38.95 CND for a $15 USD book?

What currency converter are they using?

Maybe it will be $200CDB for CMBB and manual...

Hmmmmmmm.

[Firefly]

Originally posted by Leutnant Hortlund:

, it could at least have been included in the pdf file on the CD.

Well only us lucky CDV buyers got a .pdf file because CDV couldn't fit the full BFC manual into their DVD style box. It's not additional information, it's stuff that the rest of the world got in printed format.

[Truppenfuhrung]

About the Canadian order...

I'am a canadian, I live in Montreal.

Yes, the exchange between US$ and CAN$ is high ( around 1.5) but...

1-When a order the CD, I receive it within 6 days...

2-The custom did not charge me any extra fee (i.e. GTS).

By the way, I totally suck at the game but I still love it. Hope de Stat. guide will help me !

[ December 14, 2002, 01:14 AM: Message edited by: Truppenfuhrung ]

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

Originally posted by Terrapin:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Leutnant Hortlund:

Well, personally Im not gonna buy the book. I am of the opinion that some of the stuff in the book should have been in the manual.

Good for you, man. It's impressive that people in this day and age are willing to stand up for a few important principles that they believe in, instead of caving into corporate greed. I salute you.</font>

[markwalker]

Hi All,

I'm writing after I read the first page. Thanks to all for your gracious comments. Sorry for any typos, we really did try to catch them all, but obviuosly failed. We'll make sure the second print run is letter perfect.

I played CMBO from the beginning, yet was surprised at the stuff I learned played CMBB, browsing the forums, and asking questions. I do hope that there is something for everyone in the book. We thought you all would like the data tables. It took A LOT of time. There aren't "Excel" files within the game that include the information, so my wife and I had to go through every year, every nationality, squad-by-squad.

Anyway, thanks. I hope that you all enjoy it.

Best,

Mark

[ December 14, 2002, 05:16 AM: Message edited by: markwalker ]

[markwalker]

Hi Guys,

Let's see... 10 years of writing strategy guides and user manuals, 45 some books, and I still hear the same stuff.

Why detailed strategy tips were not included in the user manual is the same reason that your new Town & Country's owner manual doesn't teach high-speed driving. The user manual teaches the mechanic of operating the game, the strategy guide teaches you how to play it well. They aren't the same thing.

Let's dispell two myths: Suits and coniving publishers. As far as I know, no one in Battlefront wears a suit. I work in cut-off shorts and a tank top. The whole "suits" rap is so lame. These guys truly bust tail to keep their customers happy. Yeah, they don't mind making a buck, but in all my interaction with them, I've felt they thought quality and customer satisfaction was the most imporatnt thing.

Coniving publishers... in 40 books I have NEVER been told. "Here put this in the strategy guide. It's really stuff on how to operate the game, but we want to suck the extra bucks out of potential customers, piss them off, and keep them from buying any more of our product." Please, be reasonable. There is a limit to what can be stuffed in a user manual. Martin did a great job on this one. Give him credit.

Best,

Mark

[Stacheldraht]

because CM was designed to reward intuitive play rather than analyzing minuscle details.

Uh oh, all the grogs have been playing the wrong game all this time

[Barrold]

Hiya Mark:

Thanks for the input and for the efforts on the strategy book.

Hopefully the book does well enough that you'll be able to afford sleeves for your shirts.

BDH

[Apache]

Well I must admit, I'm looking forward to getting it.

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Mykol:

$38.95 CND for a $15 USD book?

What currency converter are they using?

Maybe it will be $200CDB for CMBB and manual...

Hmmmmmmm.

No no

Its not $15

its $15 + $8 shipping = $23 plus about 1.5 exhchange THEN it might it nailed at the border for GST thats %8 on the $15 US

Seriously..

BUT I'm not complaining I am REALLY looking forward to the book and I think it is not too much to pay, the post is just a comment on the state of the US economy and the worthlessness of the CND dollar. If you are a American a vacation in Canada can be a REALLY inexpensive proposition

-tom w

[ December 14, 2002, 08:27 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[SirLoinOfBeef]

Originally posted by markwalker:

[QB]Hi Guys,

"Let's see... 10 years of writing strategy guides and user manuals, 45 some books, and I still hear the same stuff."

Obviously you never worked for Talonsoft.

"Why detailed strategy tips were not included in the user manual is the same reason that your new Town & Country's owner manual doesn't teach high-speed driving. The user manual teaches the mechanic of operating the game, the strategy guide teaches you how to play it well. They aren't the same thing."

Not looking for strategy tips in manual.I'll learn them.But omitting Unit Stats Tables(essential to gameplay) and then selling it with a tips guide is a cheap tactic..Not on par with the standards your game has achieved.

"Let's dispell two myths: Suits and coniving publishers. As far as I know, no one in Battlefront wears a suit. I work in cut-off shorts and a tank top. The whole "suits" rap is so lame. These guys truly bust tail to keep their customers happy. Yeah, they don't mind making a buck, but in all my interaction with them, I've felt they thought quality and customer satisfaction was the most imporatnt thing."

Wargames is a niche market,but the word-of-mouth is what makes your longetivity.GAmes like CMBB,IL2..etc..It's the community that should be your first priority,and a Unit Stats Table should be downloadable or we mad at having to pay exchange rates for statistics that you didn't create.You write something original like your game and strats,fine,I'll buy that,but I want to know what size tube an IS2 has without having to shell $40...Yes,I'm from Canada.

Sir Loin..

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Moon:

Well, I'm still waiting for my own copy to arrive to check the typos, which could take a little since the European warehouse is sold out...

Martin

Sold out, or did Fionn's parents make him move that stuff out of the basement again?

[ December 14, 2002, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Straif]

People, people… Even if.. I say, even if the tables should be included in the main game release (it is not true IMHO) then I’ve just paid $65.00 for a great game! ($50.0 CD + manual; 15$ Strategy Guide) And I am expecting to play this game next 2 years at minimum. Oh, and it is all for a price of 5 cinema tickets. Don’t be picky…

Straif

[Ultraman]

Typos aside, I'm really enjoying strat guide. As has been voiced already in various ways, I am grateful that we have a game made with such dedication to detail and with such a large, loyal community.

Regarding all the comments of 'cheap moneymaking tactics' and 'suits', etc. well, it never ceases to amaze me the ends people will go to to gripe about something. Having been a lurker on these boards since before CMBO, my guess is if you conspiracy theorists had a chance to meet these guys, have a cup of coffee, or whatever, you'd realize that these shallow conspiracy theories are just that.

Mind you, in today's market I can understand that people are quick to jump the gun. I'm not as much of a gamer as I used to be, and that's in part due to the rapidly declining quality of games ever since the 'suits' took over. Sadly, it's been a long time since I've seen a team work this hard to get things right.

No one at Battlefront said they were perfect, and I wonder how much some people here truly appreciate how difficult it is to get through a monumental task like this without leaving out what others may think are 'obvious' things.

Yeah, I agree that some things were left out of the manual. But there's a lot in the Strat Guide, in my opinion, that needn't be in the manual, and that no one needed to write a book about. No one's forcing anybody to buy the thing, and if you feel like your making some great statement by not buying it out of protest, well... I guess you gotta do what makes you happy (grandma's advice).

I bought it, I'm happy!

In the meantime, Mark, Battlefront, Martin, everybody who contributed... Thank you!!!

[ December 14, 2002, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: Ultraman ]

[Pascal DI FOLCO]

Originally posted by Moon:

Well, I'm still waiting for my own copy to arrive to check the typos, which could take a little since the European warehouse is sold out...

Martin

Too bad for you, got mine this morning in douce France

I got what I've bought, the manual was'nt a blinding strike of light to me but it is thorough and informative. I'm just not very happy with the host of typos (something around 1/page in some chapters) and some charts also looks buggy (sum of weapons in squad doesn't add up to *what I know to be* the nr of men in squad, unfortunately not figuring in the chart.. ).

But overall glad to have given 15 bucks more to BFC, 10 to the nice post guys over the world , and still 0 to CDV :eek: !

Will there be localized European versions (for my friends ...) ? Will they be cut by 2/3, "SS" mentions replaced by Waffletroops and book copy protected by pink print on purple background ? :eek:

Just kidding..

[Terrapin]

Originally posted by SirLoinOfBeef:

"Let's see... 10 years of writing strategy guides and user manuals, 45 some books, and I still hear the same stuff."

Obviously you never worked for Talonsoft..

Hey, loser. Have you contributed ANYTHING of substance to this forum, since you got here? Do you even OWN the game (you've never posted about it)? Oh, BTW, I've had plenty of TalonSoft products, and they have plenty of bugs and typos, so do you even own any of THOSE games either?

I thought you were leaving this thread for good. Either way, I don't see you on this forum too much longer.

P.S. Moon, why don't you check this guy's IP address against "XXX Fool" that you banned recently.