CMBO vs CMBB demo - poor scenarios

[Rob Murray]

Well I just got the bloody thing!! Took me three tries & three hours to get it! Seems to be well worth it though. Graphics are really good. Just played the tutorial & quit because I was getting mauled - not used to the game yet. Going to give the computer a rest now because it's been on for a LONG time getting the demo.

[MrSpkr]

Originally posted by jagcommander:

We evangelists and true believers want a demo we can take to others to show those new to CMBB what a great game it is . . . It does not help enough to convince true newbies that they should lay down $45 plus shipping . . . Maybe some of your biggest fans think you can go farther than you do, and we'd like to have the tools to help.

Thank you jagcommander -- that is EXACTLY how I feel about the demo.

Steve

[Jarmo]

Well... okay... BFC's explanation is good enough...

...I'll just crawl back into my hole now....

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

I'd just like to say that I think Battlefront (and especially you on this thread Steve) have been very diplomatic in reguards to everyones complaints. While some are worth taking the time to address, others just seem to be laughable and driven into the ground. I think this thread is a good example of the latter. I agree the demo didn't carry the excitement of the original, but since this has been stated over and over, why does it continue? I have read through most of the thread, and almost everyones points are valid ones, but since the game is now on our heels and the condition of the demo isn't going to change, why do people perseverate on this topic? While I'll probably be called a fanboy (it won't be the first time) for supporting battlefront's decisions and fairhandedness in addressing this issue, I say DROP IT PEOPLE. A great game is uppon us. So what if we have to wait for a new CM fix because the demo could only be played a couple of times before it got boring? In a few weeks, we're gonna have a kick @$$ helluva good time bashing each other with what appears to be a new and robust QB setup. So who cares that the demo scenarios are dry? We're gonna play a million QBs in the first week, and I bet we'll see new player scenarios and operations start to pop up within days of release (in addition to the 50 bats and 10 ops that come with the game). So kick back and enjoy your families and football season while CMBB isn't in your hands yet. Because soon you'll not have as much time for either.

[ September 09, 2002, 02:04 AM: Message edited by: Vader's Jester ]

[Prinz Eugen]

What Vader's Jester said !

[pad152]

Look out Sergeant, the treads are falling off the tank!

I remember seeing CMBO screen shots when it was the second coming of computer AH's version of squad leader. The first failed attempt ended up as Close Combat. I remember down loading and playing the first CMBO demo and at first I wasn't sure what to make of it was so different from other wargames, I wasn't even sure I liked it. The more I played it the more I found I liked it and still play CMBO. BTS even released a third scenario for the demo, I'd never seen a game company do that before.

I'm not a not a big fan of the East Front but, waited and download and played the demo not sure of what to expect. I found that the demo to be one side affairs, this may be historically accurate but not much fun. Some things I don't understand like how many people are going to know the ranks on the uniforms of Russian Army or even care? How many in the US are going to play a game in which nobody in the game speaks English?

What tactical advantage can I get from watching trees blowing in the wind or is this just eye candy?

Some of the things I'd hope to see in the game didn't make it, oh well maybe the next version. New features, a lot of these are hidden under the covers, I even read the new features list three times, and still not sure of what make of the new arty rules, temp data and some other stuff.

Right now for me CMBB is a wait and see, the games not released yet but, the bad thing here is the attitude on this forum, yes the same questions are asked again and again, but far to often when someone says something you get a negative response you don't know what your talking about or go back playing Doom. I wonder how many others don't post here because of this. Even the BTS staff that use to be friendly and help full, are at times being very negative and defensive. I hope somebody does something before the treads do fall off.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by pad152:

Even the BTS staff that use to be friendly and help full, are at times being very negative and defensive. I hope somebody does something before the treads do fall off.

And that surprises you why? Sorry Pad, but with the reaction by quite a number of people here, after the two years of very hard work by BTS to get this game out, I am surprised that Steve still has the humour and civility that he has shown in this thread and elsewhere.

Count it for yourself - how many threads here are griping about something, in many cases absolutely piddling nonsense, that can be modded in a flash (the interface, and the shockwaves come to mind). How many threads are actually saying - yes, I don't like all aspects of CMBB, but fundamentally this game rocks and you should be congratulated for it. The nattering nabobs of negativim have a fairly firm grasp on this board at the moment it seems, with their inability to see the forest (CMBB's improved quality of simulation) for the trees (no [insert personal gripe No.XX here] wawawa) attitude.

Oh, and when you dare remind people of that, you are being called a brown-noser.

Andreas (with his head firmly wedged up Charles' arse - at least there is more light shining from it than from this thread)

[Munter]

Mmh, I guess I too have to put my spoon in this soup.

Instead of having great expectations I was merely curious about the new CMBB. There were some aspects in CMBO that weren't exactly as it was supposed to be (IMHO), and by that I mean for example weak MG's and the notorious borg-sighting. The game was entertaining, however, and deserved its good reputation. It still does.

I downloaded the demo for a week ago (41 min. at work), rushed back to my home computer and installed it. Wow! The terrain looks a whole lot better, the trees are well made and moving slightly with the breeze. Doodads give new depth to the surface, fires can (will?) spread and the smoke looks better. MG's and AT-guns are actually able to hide from the enemy even if they open fire . EFOW rocks and fixes the most problems with Borg-sighting, just don't let enemy inf. too close!

The demo is supposed to be a "teaser", not a shorter version of the whole game as it was with the CMBO. It worked for me as I had to unlearn to use the "gamey" shortcomings I was familiar with the previous version.

I'm really looking forward to the release of the CMBB. As far as I can tell from the demo, it has been worth waiting for. Thank you for ruining my civilian life (as if I had any)!

M

[ARRPEEGEE]

demo, shmemmo...Where's my copy, I'm ready for the full version! ASAP!

[Måkjager]

I am not best placed at all to comment about the quality comparison of the CMBO vs CMBB demo scenarios as i have never downloaded the CMBO demo. I bought CMBO on the strength of THAT pix with the Tiger / 251 HT , Infantry and the Church...yes i am THAT SHALLOW.

I have enjoyed immensely the games that i have played in CMBO and have been fortunate enough to have been part of the beta team for CMBB.

Steve has already stated his reasons for designing the CMBB demo scenarios the way he did so as to show case some ( if not most of the main aspects ) of what can be expected of CMBB.

For me the CMBB demo can be likened to Ford or Volkswagen demo testing a new model on the road. I am sure you lads have seen pix of new cars not yet on sale or even in full scale production with those black coverings , yeah..its a car , it has 4 wheels but i wonder what it really looks like and what is actually under the hood.

The CMBB demo scenarios are like that...they give a taste..a feel of what can be expected...except that with the full game you get more.

BFC clearly state in their front page blurb that they are not after the twitch crowd...they aim to appeal to people who appreciate well researched and implemented tactical war games upon which you have to apply yourself to master. Yes , you can have fun playing and learning but if you really care about it you will chose to try and play in a realistic fashion..ie using real life tactics.

As for CMBB and the scenarios to be included i can vouch for one in particular.

I had to play it 14 times against the AI before i was able finally to twig where i was going wrong and stop having my backside being handed to the slicer....i may have been be slow to cotton on to the fact i was making mistakes but i learned a lesson.....and that lesson is CMBB is NOT CMBO ......CMBB is what CMBO SHOULD have been had BFC had the time and resources to implement it...but they did not and the rest as they say is history. CMBB is a new ball game which may discommode some people out of the comfort zone in how they approach playing CM , but that discomfort is necessary as it will allow you to grow as a player of the game once you decide you are willing to learn.

I love eyecandy....but i love great game play better now and CMBB is fulfilling of that need.

I think somebody mentioned that not much was happening in a 10 min period when they were showing it to some friends. To me personally that time span would have conveyed tension and the question of just what is out there...and can it hurt my forces.

I now look at the lie of the land and begin to worry when nothing happens as i know it is only a matter of time before hurt arrives..but from where , that is the question that plays on my mind when engaged in combat vs the AI or a fellow CM’er.

The new orders , the well researched TOE , different units and weapons combined with new weather and terrain make CMBB a deeper immersive envoirment than CMBO that i for one do not want to leave. CMBB presents new challenges to us all on our preconceptions on WW2 combat and of how to play the game. It may not meet some peoples expectations , but after some time i think it may exceed a great deal many others.

Just this morning i arrived home from night shift looking forward to a game i am playing with a fellow beta tester. I was worried sick about my only armour asset worth speaking of that had been caught dead with its pants down by a Soviet KV.

It overlooked my Stug from the brow of a hill and began to fire some shots off at the Stug which looked like it was going to catch a 76 in the smacker.

With a little bit of *luck* the KV missed with the few shots it fired but then had to retreat due to the presence of 2 squads i had previously ordered to advance on ( KV ) and try take out. Thanks to Charles for the vehicle morale code i still mb have a Stug to employ in my attack on the Russian line.

I full well understand that many of the old hands do care deeply about CM ( same for the welcome newbies ) and want to see it succeed for BFC so as we get the chance to see and play the next addition to the CM stable , but making judgement on CMBB THE GAME and thinking of not buying it due to the CMBB demo scenarios that were designed for a specific purpose does not help the situation at all as you will be missing out on something that is ahead in terms of game play to CMBO.

Among the beta team there are some if not all of the best scenario designers who have worked their socks off making varied , interesting and challenging scenarios which showcase as best possible within the confines of a electronic game some close semblance of what combat was like on the Eastern Front and these have given BFC plenty of great games to be included on the final cd.

BFC are to be commended on the work they have and continue to do in brining as realistic and historically accurate as possible with in the confines of time , resources , research information and sheer stamina games that allow us to have fun and use our brains at the same time ( if you choose to do so )

Either BFC are doing somfink right in that i have bought 2 games other than CM ( + beta testing CMBB ) over the last 4 years neither of which has the same hold over my imagination or in fact i am actually quite mad and deranged

Best of luck to BFC with CMBB and get Steve back in front of his mac....us shareholders dont like slackers

Regards

Måkjager

[Guest Sgt. Emren]

Flash Whiz Bang Crapola IV - The Short Attentionspan Wetdream

When's the demo comming out?

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Instead I see some people that have (understandably) unreasonably high expectations and demands that they wish to be met for their own (understandably) selfish reasons.

I'm afraid you're completely missing the point, as are quite a few people here, as that is EXACTLY what this is NOT about.

But, as I said earlier, it's your bat and ball.

[Mace]

Originally posted by pad152:

Some things I don't understand like how many people are going to know the ranks on the uniforms of Russian Army or even care? How many in the US are going to play a game in which nobody in the game speaks English?

I don't speak a word of German or Russian, but I'd rather CMBB be as accurate as possible and portray the actual languages used on that front rather than 'movie' Russian or 'movie' German (ie English with a British accent). I think you'd find the majority of existing CM players would prefer accuracy as well.

As for the CMBB scenarios? I find them quite challenging and that as far as I'm concerned is the name of the game - to be challenged.

Oh btw, it's only a few weeks to go until the CMBB release. I'm sure BTS' time would be better spent working on any issues or concerns about the soon released game than trying to put out the flames generated by this good scenario/bad scenario argument.

Mace

[Clubfoot]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Instead I see some people that have (understandably) unreasonably high expectations and demands that they wish to be met for their own (understandably) selfish reasons.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm afraid you're completely missing the point, as are quite a few people here, as that is EXACTLY what this is NOT about.

No, he's not. Because he doesn't agree with you does not not mean he's missed the point. In fact, I think he's seen through this falsely-stated concern by third parties over how BTS's demo decisions will affect their future stake in the gaming industry.

"Well, er, um, I liked the demo just fine, but my concern is for BTS's profits and ability to bring in new players from other markets, and, uh, ya know, more, bigger, better just might do it." Crap. You want more for free.

Why anyone here should be concerned for BTS's profit margins is so far beyond me that it smells of whitewash. As my dear ol' dad would put it, "Y'all got a rabid case of the gimme's".

[fiftymicrolitres]

This thread will be locked up soon.

5m

[MrSpkr]

Originally posted by fiftymicrolitres:

This thread will be locked up soon.

5m

fifty microliters of what?

Steve

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by Clubfoot:

You know something? I don't even have time for the demo. I will make time for the game when it's released. I'd pre-order if I could. The issue I have is in terms of bringing new players into the game, and I don't think the demo does the full game justice in that regard. End of story.

And as I keep saying, if BFC disagree with that, fine, it's their product, just don't accue people of selfish motives when they make suggestions that are designed to be helpful. That's my last contribution to this as some people seem to be deliberately reading other things into this.

[deanco]

One of the major complaints is that the demo doesn't do a good job of hooking new clients. I break those new clients down into 2 categories.

1) Wargamers that haven't heard of CMBO (what rock are they living under?), and

2) gamers in general who like strategy games like Civ3 and RTS like, say, Sudden Strike.

Hopefully I can assert (without starting a flame war) that Category 1 has significantly fewer people in it than Category 2.

And from a category 2 POV, The CMBB demo does a waaaay better job of hooking new clients than the CMBO demo. Not because of the scenarios, but because everything looks TIGHT graphics and sound-wise. The textures on the tanks are a joy and marvel to behold. The grass and steppe look better because of the doodads and better texturing. Gone is the flourescent grass of the demo. The sky looks REALLY good. You got muzzle flashes and smoke now instead of those funky half-spheres when a tank fires. The trees look better. In short, the Warcraft 3 player that downloads the demo is not gonna erase it from his HD because of the graphics. And once we've overcome that hurdle well, that's one major hurdle overcome that will allow Joe Gamer to actually get into the game, which is the whole point.

Although I woulda done some things different, I consider the CMBB demo vastly superior to the CMBO one in terms of hooking people that are new to the genre. Don't take my word for it, run the 2 side by side and tell me which one wins the eye candy title.

[ September 09, 2002, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: deanco ]

[Kingfish]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Andreas (with his head firmly wedged up Charles' arse - at least there is more light shining from it than from this thread)

Hey, while you're in there, you think you could mention something about the follow command?

Thanks

[Jarmo]

Crap. You want more for free.

Why anyone here should be concerned for BTS's profit margins is so far beyond me that it smells of whitewash. As my dear ol' dad would put it, "Y'all got a rabid case of the gimme's".

Bull****, do not presume to know what I think and want, when you do not and do not judge me by your shallow standards.

Even if there was to be a new scenario, the best time for it would be after the first patch(es). Well after we have the full game..

Anyway, like I said, I'm happy with BFC's reasoning, case closed as far as I'm concerned.

[Firefly]

Originally posted by deanco:

And from a category 2 POV, The CMBB demo does a waaaay better job of hooking new clients than the CMBO demo. Not because of the scenarios, but because everything looks TIGHT graphics and sound-wise.

Very good point. There was a discussion, after the CDV release of CM:BO, in the Usenet strategy games group (Mace will probably remember it) where a guy who is a long time member of category 2 argued that whilst he had no doubt to CM's accuracy, what he described as the 'amateurish graphics' in the demo had made him decide not to buy it because in his view it was little more than a shareware game. A few of us argued that mods had improved the graphics immensely, but his initial impression had prejudiced him against the game and it wasn't the balance or replayability of the scenarios had caused that impression.

Of course, as Steve says, CM is not deliberately aimed at that sort of gamer, but to assume that the CM:BB demo is less likely to attract them than the CM:BO demo is questionable at least.

[ September 09, 2002, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: Firefly ]

[Tarquelne]

Why anyone here should be concerned for BTS's profit margins is so far beyond me that it smells of whitewash. As my dear ol' dad would put it, "Y'all got a rabid case of the gimme's".[/QB]

One of my favorite "bits" from the Lord of the Rings (the books) is the fact that Sauron didn't anticipate the plan of the Captains of the West because that plan was fundamnetally unselfish. As a totally debased and evil entity Sauron _couldn't_ understand thier motivation.

..... oh, sorry, was that off topic?

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andreas:

Andreas (with his head firmly wedged up Charles' arse - at least there is more light shining from it than from this thread)

Hey, while you're in there, you think you could mention something about the follow command?

Thanks</font>

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by deanco:

everything looks TIGHT graphics and sound-wise. The textures on the tanks are a joy and marvel to behold. The grass and steppe look better because of the doodads and better texturing. Gone is the flourescent grass of the demo. The sky looks REALLY good. You got muzzle flashes and smoke now instead of those funky half-spheres when a tank fires. The trees look better.

You had the same evolution from the original Close Combat game to Close Combat 2. Both are a big step up from the original. There's certainly a great "ooh" factor with the audio and video improvements.

[deanco]

"There's certainly a great "ooh" factor with the audio and video improvements."

And those "ooh" factors are a major consideration in judging a game. Call it shallow, call it what you will. It's important to me.

And I gotta thank this thread, because it made me download the demo to see what all the fuss was about. And the fact of downloading the demo from somewhere else and installing it on my hard drive put distance between me and the game, it sort of erased all the time I spent working on it, and I was able to judge it like I'd judge any demo. It was almost like I hadn't worked on the game at all, I was a punter. And I really, really, liked what I saw, no kidding.

But I think I'm turning grog here. Because now I want real time shadows and dynamic lighting. Yep, I want more.