edward_n_kelly Posted January 4, 2002 Share Posted January 4, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gyrene: "Rounders" sounds like something that little girls play and I have to say that I've yet to see any sport which requires faster and more accurate throwing than baseball, cricket included. <hr></blockquote> Amongst others, wasn't it Ken Burns' doco on baseball that pointed out that "rounders" was one of the influences on basball ? And in the same show that cricket was the very popular in the US at the time (because there were not that many summer games around) ? And "gridiron" arose from rugby (union - "the game played in heaven") because of the number of deaths. Edward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted January 4, 2002 Share Posted January 4, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by edward_n_kelly: Amongst others, wasn't it Ken Burns' doco on baseball that pointed out that "rounders" was one of the influences on basball ? And in the same show that cricket was the very popular in the US at the time (because there were not that many summer games around) ? <hr></blockquote> Yep. <blockquote>quote:</font><hr> And "gridiron" arose from rugby (union - "the game played in heaven") because of the number of deaths. Edward<hr></blockquote> Which is turn arose from Football, when the boys at Rugby School (most notable old boys - Tom Brown and Henry Paget-Flashman ) first picked the ball up and ran with it, rather than dribbling it along the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edward_n_kelly Posted January 4, 2002 Share Posted January 4, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Brian: Which is turn arose from Football, when the boys at Rugby School (most notable old boys - Tom Brown and Henry Paget-Flashman ) first picked the ball up and ran with it, rather than dribbling it along the ground.<hr></blockquote> Actually it was William Webb Ellis (1806-1872) who, with a fine disregard for the rules and customs of football, picked up the ball (gasp !)and ran with it (shock! horror!)(in 1822). And it was Harry Paget Flashman (no hyphen). TB and HPF were latter day students at Rugby being there in the late 1830s and early 1840s. WWE actually won a cricket Blue at Oxford in 1827. (some sources put each date a year later for some reason....) Edward [ 01-03-2002: Message edited by: edward_n_kelly ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croda Posted January 4, 2002 Author Share Posted January 4, 2002 Where I come from, 'Rounders' are what we call the girls you don't want to leave the bar with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted January 4, 2002 Share Posted January 4, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Croda: Where I come from, 'Rounders' are what we call the girls you don't want to leave the bar with.<hr></blockquote> Sounds to me like you frequent the wrong sort of bars... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jshandorf Posted January 4, 2002 Share Posted January 4, 2002 quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Croda: Where I come from, 'Rounders' are what we call the girls you don't want to leave the bar with. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Brian: Sounds to me like you frequent the wrong sort of bars... <hr></blockquote> That would explain why Croda is married. Alcohol and "rounders".... Damn shame... Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyrene Posted January 4, 2002 Share Posted January 4, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr> As for the playing fields of Eton, I don't need to comb them for anything. Afterall, it was on them, that an Empire was founded. <hr></blockquote> *SIGH*, appears you have forgotten that "Empire" is the erroneous term as Britain has never had an "Emperor", maybe "Queendom" didn't sound pompous enough. Where's the Empire now? Croda - Stay away from the fat chicks Gyrene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew H. Posted January 5, 2002 Share Posted January 5, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gyrene: *SIGH*, appears you have forgotten that "Empire" is the erroneous term as Britain has never had an "Emperor", maybe "Queendom" didn't sound pompous enough. Gyrene<hr></blockquote> Not quite true; the british monarchs had numerous titles, something like, "King of the United Kingdom of Britain and Ireland, and of the Overseas Dominions, and Emperor of India." So the british had an emperor, even if the british emperor was not emperor of the britains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted January 5, 2002 Share Posted January 5, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gyrene: *SIGH*, appears you have forgotten that "Empire" is the erroneous term as Britain has never had an "Emperor", maybe "Queendom" didn't sound pompous enough. <hr></blockquote> Tsk, tsk, is your knowledge of British history that bad that you think only Queens have sat upon the Throne of England? <blockquote>quote:</font><hr> Where's the Empire now? <hr></blockquote> Rapidly being absorbed into the newest one, whose Emperor sits in a house the British burnt ~200 years ago... :eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chosun-few Posted January 5, 2002 Share Posted January 5, 2002 Dunno about throwing distance but my old man reckoned that the blast from a mills bomb could toss shrapnel further than you could throw the grenade away from you. So you made damn sure you could take cover before you started Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew H. Posted January 5, 2002 Share Posted January 5, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Chosun-few: Dunno about throwing distance but my old man reckoned that the blast from a mills bomb could toss shrapnel further than you could throw the grenade away from you. So you made damn sure you could take cover before you started<hr></blockquote> One of the selling points of newer grenades (i.e., those developed in the 60's) has certainly been the fact that the new fragmentation systems (typically using notched wire or somthing similar) not only provide more uniform shrapnel dispersion, but also provide a much more defined safe range. That is, it's much more likely that a person standing 30m away from a grenade with a 20m danger zone will not be hit by shrapnel than was the case in WWII. Not that I would rely on this, of course. Post WWII studies of WWII grenades showed that the shrapnel did not spray out uniformly from the grenade, and the shrapnel was not of uniform size, either, despite the design of the pineapple grenade, which was supposed to encourage this. Instead, the grenade broke into a few big chunks, and several very small pieces. The small pieces had a very short range, and were not particularly lethal, whereas some of the larger pieces could fly 100 yds. None of which really matters if you throw the grenade into a bunker or room -- the small fragments will be lethal enough at that range, and the large fragments will be unlikely to fly back out of the room or bunker. And of course there's a concussion effect. But if you're in a field or something, it is far preferable to have predictable grenades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted January 6, 2002 Share Posted January 6, 2002 The Germans mostly used the standard "potato masher" style grenade, which was quite light at 17 ozs (about like modern hand grenades) and thus had a good effective range of about 40 yards. Its drawbacks were a small explosive charge - 165 grams, often of 80/20 or 60/40 amatol, with the explosive power of 132-165 g of TNT depending on the kind of explosive in the grenade - and the fact that it was designed to kill by this blast, not being optimized for fragmentation. This gave it a relatively small CZ of 5-10 yards. The combination of long range and small area effect made it quite safe for the user, but basically an "offensive" pattern grenade, and as such useful against enemy in bunkers or buildings, but distinctly underpowered against men in the open. The effects you see for grenades in CM seem to me reasonably accurate for this sort of grenade - though still probably a bit underpowered when they go off. They also had two other types common enough to matter. First, a much lighter "egg" style grenade, only 8 oz, with 115 grams of explosive filler. It too had good range and it was easily made, supplied, carried, etc. But the charge is quite small for a grenade, and again you'd need close accuracy to hurt things, confined spaces, or both. The second was the expedient of strapping 6 extra grenade bodies to one "potato masher" to make a 1 kg explosive charge (explosive weight - the thing really ran more like 5 lbs). This could be used as a demo charge, but could not be thrown very far or very accurately. In CM terms, it would amount to a demo charge not a grenade anyway. The US used the Mk II A1 fragmentation grenade. The only other type used often in practice was the WP. The frag weighed 21 oz (about 1 1/4 lbs) and could be thrown about 35 yards. It was meant to do damage by fragments not explosive power alone, and produced about 1000 pieces large and fast-moving enough to kill or seriously wound. Its KZ was around 5 yards and its rated CZ about 15 yards - but standing men would still be playing russian roulette at 25 yards away, and the pieces of the grenade could come down 250 yards from the detonation point (though the chance of anyone being hurt that far away was infinitessimal). Compared to CM grenades, these would have somewhat shorter range but more effect than you typically see. WP weighed 2 lbs and could only be thrown about 25 yards - which was also the burst radius of the WP particles inside, which burned at 5000 degrees (F) for about 60 seconds. WP was a favorite for confined spaces (especially cellars), rather than the rarer "offensive", blast-only grenade. The Brits mostly used the Mills bomb, a WW I era grenade of considerable size. It was designed for shrapnel effect like the US frag, but heavier at around 1 3/4 pounds - more like the weight of the US WP grenade. Its range was comparatively limited - 25-30 yards - but its fragmentation was dangerous at 40 yards. The thrower and his friends went under cover as soon as it was thrown, therefore - which the US types also required, though not as strongly as the Mills bomb did. It may have been overkill on small bunkers or inside rooms, but one man's overkill is another man's making sure. It was far more powerful than the German stick grenade, which it doesn't appear to be in CM. Modern hand grenades, which many have probably handled, are close in blast and frag effect to the US WW II frag - but they are lighter, about the weight of the German stick grenade and sometimes a bit less. They manage to combine the range of the latter with the power of the former in part through more effective explosives - typically composition B. In part they exploit later discoveries in effective fragment producing experience, which showed that the corrugated design of the earlier frag grenades was not necessary to produce lethal shards. It does produce larger ones, but if the explosive is powerful enough even smaller shards can be dangerous enough to do the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacheldraht Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 Standard ammo loadout for German and British troops was 50-60 rifle rounds per man, IIRC.Anyone have any sources detailing that info? Not that I'm questioning it; I'm just curious to find more hard data. Also, anyone know the standard ammo loadouts for Soviet WWII infantry troops, insofar as such a thing was standardized? What was the standard issue grenade count for German and Soviet troops? Thanks. [ February 26, 2002, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: Stacheldraht ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 Jason, we're not going to get anywhere if you just give us half the story. Don't hold back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tripps Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 Originally posted by jshandorf: and don't even get me started on the "retardo-time out" helmets they got on. Sheeesh... I could see it now… yeah sorry about that, but please feel free to place your head in front of a cricket ball at full tit to prove how non-dangerous it is.... and besides, its generally the theme that boys grow up playing Cricket in the summer and Rugby in the winter (either union or league), and i doubt that many would deny the toughness players need to last 80 minutes with no 'advert breaks' and the so-called 'retardo helmets' that i see other contact sports use note - i aint saying it's the toughest, i aint beatin my ego here, actually, i think that French? game that looks like a huge scrap would probably be the clostest to life threatening and i can only speak for NZ here, but i'm sure its the same in Aussie and Britain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronChef4 Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 so anyway. . .about grenades. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacheldraht Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 Yeah, we all know that the only sport that really matters is that old party favorite: naked, drunken Twister Seriously, though, if anyone could point me to sources regarding my above query, it would be much appreciated. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The ol one eye. Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 When I was a kid, we would make a device called a 'funnelator' to launch water balloons at our opponents ( The Innocent and Unexpecting ) at ranges up to 150 yards or so. All you need is about 6 feet of heavy surgical tubing and a funnel (hence funnel-ator) have your cohorts grab each end of tube, while the third loads pulls and fires the ballon, like a giant sling shot. It is simple, cheap, accurate and effective to throw a FULL ballon a good distance. Why couldnt you just substitute a H2O balloon with a Mills bomb or any other grenade? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 Originally posted by JasonC: The US used the Mk II A1 fragmentation grenade. The only other type used often in practice was the WP.If the accounts I have read are reliable, the U.S. also issued a smoke grenade in various colors, used mostly for signalling, as to mark your own position to "friendly" aircraft (hopefully to insure that they remain friendly; didn't always work). Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badinfo Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 Just as a weird side note to the throwing discussion, PJ O'Rourke made some comments about the throwing ability of Panamanian rioters being much better than that of rioters he observed in Beirut and Korea which he attributed to baseball being played by Panamanians as opposed to Beirut soccer players and Korean students (who probably play Starcraft) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wbs Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 From the ol' one-eye: When I was a kid, we would make a device called a 'funnelator' to launch water balloons at our opponents ( The Innocent and Unexpecting ) at ranges up to 150 yards or so. All you need is about 6 feet of heavy surgical tubing and a funnel (hence funnel-ator) have your cohorts grab each end of tube, while the third loads pulls and fires the ballon, like a giant sling shot. It is simple, cheap, accurate and effective to throw a FULL ballon a good distance. Why couldnt you just substitute a H2O balloon with a Mills bomb or any other grenade? LOL!! Yeah, when I was a student at the Univ. of Delaware we would hook up a funnelator in my dorm room, pull it across the room and out into the hall, and send water bombs sailing across the roof of the dining hall to bombard the wall of the dorm 100 yds away on the other side of the quad. It was always a sweet moment when one would disappear into an open window. Of course, it worked in the other direction, too, and we took our share of hits. This would go on all year long--What Fun!! Ah, how I miss those days of carefree irresponsibility. It almost makes me want to go back for another graduate degree just so that I can do that again.... :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 While I applaude the development of water bomb launchers, can they compare to a breech loading, electric fan powered compressed air munitions launcher, capable of firing a round of butter, potato, soggy toilet paper or similar composition, accurate enough to deliver a first round shot through a window at a range of 30 yards. Even better, the rest of the Uni halls didn't have anything to fight back with... Close range fire power was afforded by the use of a cake round. Will this be modeled in CMBB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HVAP Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 This has been the most intersting post I have ever read. Grenades national sport disputes and now water and compressed air arms. A. How do I make me one of these? are the 60mm 2inch or what B. Americans do not like to dress up for their sports, I don't care how hard you throw if you wear a sweater you will not be taken seriously over here do you play with an oar or soemthing? C. I apologize for my utter lack of useful input but at least its not PENG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The ol one eye. Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 I thought the funnelator principle could be used by enterprising troops needing to distribute grenades further than an arm could, but without the inconvenience of a mortar tube. I think it could work. Anyone have a live grenade I could borrow? Oh yeah, *ahem* where did the name 'grenade' come from in the first place? Who thought the damned things up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 Originally posted by badinfo: Just as a weird side note to the throwing discussion, PJ O'Rourke made some comments about the throwing ability of Panamanian rioters being much better than that of rioters he observed in Beirut and Korea which he attributed to baseball being played by Panamanians as opposed to Beirut soccer players and Korean students (who probably play Starcraft) The hallowed name Cess has been invoked so now we seep. This argument or statement by PJ O'Rourke is naughty because it is a false cause argument, Some Panamanians riot, some Panamanians play baseball therefore all Panamanians who riot play baseball. That’s how it reads if PJ O’Rourke hypothesis is correct. This is unmitigated silliness on O'Rourke's part. False cause arguments are not on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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