Grenade Range

[Croda]

I'm curious. I've heard from vets that a good toss on a Mark II Frag grenade would be about 20 - 30 yards. I know the potato mashers were lighter and could be tossed further, though they had less oomph. Does anyone have any other info on throwing distance for the frag grenade? I had always believed this distance to be fairly accurate, but I'm not too sure.

Why am I asking? I was checking out the Multiplayer Demo for Medal of Honor: Allied Assault which has you tossing grenades what seems like 100 yards.

Also, what was a typical infantryman's loadout?

Thanks

[Patgod]

mohaa is bull sh@t when it comes to realism. you might as well have the H&K nade launcher from vietnam with the way the damn things fly.

[Michael Dorosh]

Standard ammo loadout for German and British troops was 50-60 rifle rounds per man, IIRC. This could be increased, and of course riflemen also humped ammo for the section machinegun and platoon weapons (mortar, anti-tank).

[ 01-01-2002: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]</p>

[Croda]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Patgod:

mohaa is bull sh@t when it comes to realism. you might as well have the H&K nade launcher from vietnam with the way the damn things fly.<hr></blockquote>

I agree from a grenade standpoint. It's horrible, and some guy was arguing with me about the grenades today. Other than that though, with the realism mod that someone did, I think it seems fairly real. (Like I have first hand knowledge, right?)

[Gyrene]

Are these baseball playing Americans and Canadians you are talking about, or Brits & Germans?

Sounds silly, but throwing things far and accurately is common skill with most North American youth.

Not everybody of course...

Gyrene

[gredeker]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't grenades mostly used when you're already in close proximity but don't have a direct LOS? I mean, if you have a good LOS, you just shoot the guy. But my impression is that you throw a grenade over the wall, or around the corner, or through the door or window, or down the staircase, etc.

I'd also think that it would take a few seconds to throw one, as you have to put down your weapon, grab the grenade off your harness, pull the pin, throw it, then pick your weapon back up.

Somebody who has actually used grenades in a combat or training situation please chime in!

[CMplayer]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by redeker:

Somebody who has actually used grenades in a combat or training situation please chime in!<hr></blockquote>

I can relate a story told by a Vietnam vet I used to know:

He was patrolling in dense vegetation when he got hit in the left side by a burst of automatic weapon fire from a little cave opening or hole. He was hit in his arm, body and leg. Lying down he was out of LOS of the hole but very frightened that whoever shot him would come out and kill him, so he drew his pistol with his still functional right hand. He wanted to try to put a grenade into the hole, but the big worry in his mind was that he would have to put down the pistol to get the grenade ready. It was just a question of seconds, but the situation was tense.

I don't remember how it ended, except that when I knew him he was working on a farm and his arm and leg had mended.

[Gyrene]

Grenades are used in both the assault or prepared defenses, from just over the wall to out to about 40 yards.

Most grenade use is premeditaded and as such you already have a grenade at the ready and a target in mind, so the act of putting your rifle or other weapon away is part of the procedure, there's little if any "snap shooting" with grenades.

Training for proper grenade use stresses two handed use, and in my case my instructors absolutely forbade any "John Wayne'ing" of grenades (Pulling the pin with your teeth) and the whole act of throwing the grenade was broken down and drilled and redrilled for just about every likely throwing position while using fuse-only grenades before we were handed the real thing.

Grenades are mostly an out of LOS weapon, but there have been innumerable accounts of grenades battles that resembled stone throwing matches were so many greandes were going off that one could not get up and fire a rifle.

Defensive positions should have the advantage early in a close quarter grenade match to simulate the greandes being at the ready and being handed to one or more throwers, whil grenades should have a stronger impact on people on the receiving end, after all grenades are LOUD and most tend to spray little uncomfortable bits of metals everywhere. As it stands in CM grenades aren't particularly effective n suppressing troops.

In the assault, the ideal use of grenades should be as follows:

-Friendlies provide covering fire

-Rush to grenade range of target (Foxhole is target in this case) lining up your target as you run.

-From cover, prep grenade and line up your body with the target (Best as a 2+ man operation)

-Friendlies open fire at target from a point away from your position

-Toss grenade & follow through to ground & cover (Both throwers) - A proper grenade throw is like throwing darts while falling forward.

-Wait for bangs & prepare to rush

-Grenades go off, and now defenders are either ducked down or picking shrapnel off their scalps, so get your ass up and you and 3-4 of your now closest friends rush the foxhole with weapons at ready.

-Half of your covering crew moves up to your previous spot the other half get ready to light up the foxhle if the sh*t hits the fan.

-Jump into the foxhole (Ideally you'll have a shotgunner at the front) and fight like cavemen, if this is a long trench one of the rushing crew may toss another grenade at the extreme end of the trench while running in.

None of this is possible or severely abstracted in CM, unfortunatly, as is the rolling down of grenades from higher level defensive positions.

Gyrene

[CMplayer]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gyrene:

None of this is possible or severely abstracted in CM, unfortunatly, as is the rolling down of grenades from higher level defensive positions.

<hr></blockquote>

A while back on this board there was a guy insisting that a squad of his tossed a grenade at a tank and it bounced back onto his own men. I thought was probably the nahverteidigungswaffe that he had seen, but he insisted that it was a rollback.

[Compassion]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gyrene:

Are these baseball playing Americans and Canadians you are talking about, or Brits & Germans?

Sounds silly, but throwing things far and accurately is common skill with most North American youth.

Gyrene<hr></blockquote>

I don't know if this is accurate or not since my only grenade experience was with an unloaded paperweight that was supposed to have once been a dummy practice grenade. But if the pinapple that I used to have is an indication there's no way in hell most kids could throw it like a baseball. It was just too dang heavy for that and if you tried to throw it like that you'd wrench your arm out.

[Gyrene]

Compassion, modern US grenades are shapes like a ball for the very reason that they are easier to throw like a baseball.

Pineapples are a slightly different story, but they are not that much more difficult to throw.

Difficulty throwing greandes to a safe range was not a problem US forces had, or I'm sure a system like the German stick grenades would have been implemented.

Gyrene

[Compassion]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gyrene:

Compassion, modern US grenades are shapes like a ball for the very reason that they are easier to throw like a baseball.

Pineapples are a slightly different story, but they are not that much more difficult to throw.

<hr></blockquote>

I know that modern grenades are more rounded (like the M33), but the old school Mark II grenade isn't and weighs about a pound and a half. Not much, but enough that it would be a pain in the butt to throw over forked fingers... maybe why the overhand 'toss' was the accepted delivery method? In conparison the M33 and M67's weigh in at just under 4 ounces. Quite a difference. Perhaps one of the reasons that throwing like a baseball is drilled nowadays compared to WWII?

edited for spelling

[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: Compassion ]</p>

[von Murrin]

I was never instructed to throw them like a baseball. Proper delivery (in training anyway) is the overhand lob.

As to range, just try to convince me to stand up and crank one of those things at someone who is a mere 40-60 yards away! Uh-uh. I'm going to make damn sure I'm lying down and behind some cover, because that ball-o'-fun isn't going any farther than 20 yards.

Nathanael

[imported_Hiram Sedai]

We weren't trained for distance as much as accuracy. They had pretend bunkers that we would would crawl near and then there was a certain spot to throw the grenade. More attention was paid on accuracy and putting yourself into cover right after throwing. "Don't watch where it went" they would yell at us.

I agree that the sound and concussion of a frag grenade was considerable. If we had thrown it like a baseball, then we would be up too long and could be visible to the enemy. Something about my fabulous wind-up I think. Imagine the life expectancy for the Phillies closer. 2.5 seconds

[ParaBellum]

Hehe, reminds me of my first hand grenade experience.

We were getting town/house fighting training at Hammelburg when we threw the first grenades. There was a target house constructed from old tires and we would stand next to the door and throw the grenades through the door around the corner.

The security officer was our company commander, a men hated by everybody because of his incompetence. We threw the grenades without the "fragmentation" layer, just the explosive package. When I threw the grenade I used a little bit too much force and didn't get the dam thing round the corner. It went through the door, hit the wall (rubber), came back and LANDED RIGHT BETWEEN MY CO'S FEET!!!!

:eek:

Never before have I seen someone moving so fast!

Kind of Jedi power...

He was quite angry but it was actually his fault since he was standing around where he wasn't supposed to be.

The next days all the NCOs gave me a hard time... Not because I made a mistake, but because I messed up the chance for a change in company command, as they put it...

[Michael Dorosh]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Hiram Sedai:

We weren't trained for distance as much as accuracy. They had pretend bunkers that we would would crawl near and then there was a certain spot to throw the grenade. More attention was paid on accuracy and putting yourself into cover right after throwing. "Don't watch where it went" they would yell at us.

<hr></blockquote>

They teach the same thing here in Canada - accuracy, and getting your head down once it's thrown.

[Brian]

Most training Pams give the maximum range for a

thrown grenade at about 40 metres. I've personally never been able to throw them more than about 25-30.

As one Vietnam veteran who I served with and who instructed me on the M26 Grenade suggested, after he had the horrible experience of the digger beside him throwing a grenade, at night, in a dense forest and having it bounce right back at him (must have hit a tree trunk), grenades are good for throwing into, out of or over things, not at things.

As for someone performing a "John Wayne" (as we also called it) - pulling the pin with his teeth. It was pointed out that with the split pin properly splayed, he'd more than likely be needing to visit his dentist the next day or accounting for why the enemy found a grenade with his dentures still attached.

[Brian]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

They teach the same thing here in Canada - accuracy, and getting your head down once it's thrown.<hr></blockquote>

Interesting, that is the reverse of what we are taught. Always observe where the grenade lands, so that you are aware if it fails to explode.

The drill was (raking through old memory cells):

Pull;

Throw;

Observe;

Down.

Of course, they might tend on a two-way rifle-range to be rather less distinct...

[Brian]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gyrene:

Are these baseball playing Americans and Canadians you are talking about, or Brits & Germans?

Sounds silly, but throwing things far and accurately is common skill with most North American youth.

Not everybody of course...

Gyrene<hr></blockquote>

*SIGH*, appears you have forgotten that both Cricket and Rounders (which is erroneous called "Baseball" in the United States) were common sports in the UK, still are. A variation on Rounders was also a common sport in Germany, in the first half of the 20th century.

Now, if you want accuracy and speed, then you cannot go past Cricket.

[Pzman]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gyrene:

Are these baseball playing Americans and Canadians you are talking about, or Brits & Germans?

Sounds silly, but throwing things far and accurately is common skill with most North American youth.

Not everybody of course...

Gyrene<hr></blockquote>

Which youth are you referring to? hehe I mean whats wrong with you people, I throw grenades 100 yards just for fun, over 300 if I really try.

[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: Panzerman ]</p>

[Gyrene]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> *SIGH*, appears you have forgotten that both Cricket and Rounders (which is erroneous called "Baseball" in the United States) were common sports in the UK, still are. A variation on Rounders was also a common sport in Germany, in the first half of the 20th century.

Now, if you want accuracy and speed, then you cannot go past Cricket.

<hr></blockquote>

"Rounders" sounds like something that little girls play and I have to say that I've yet to see any sport which requires faster and more accurate throwing than baseball, cricket included.

I wasn't born in a playing baseball playing country, didn't grow up playing it and I can't throw one to save my life, but despite of whatever Eurocentric prejudice one may have against baseball no one with any real knowledge of the sport can deny that distance, speed and accuracy throwing are the heart of the sport. Have you ever seen an outfielder lob the ball in to home from deep center? Or a shortstop send it to first on the bounce? There's a reason why first basemen's and catcher's gloves are so heavily padded to.

The argument is moot to an extent as the proper grenade throwing method is the overhand lob and drop, but if I had to really launch a smoke or frag grenade farther than normal range I'd look for the guy that play High School Baseball, but of course odds are your average Brit and German squads won't have one of those, then I'd have to find a grenade launcher I guess.

Gyrene

[gredeker]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by CMplayer:

A while back on this board there was a guy insisting that a squad of his tossed a grenade at a tank and it bounced back onto his own men. I thought was probably the nahverteidigungswaffe that he had seen, but he insisted that it was a rollback.<hr></blockquote>

I've seen something similar happen, but it was a "stop" instead of a rollback. An enemy Brit (engineer?) squad that was crossing the street suddenly found itself face to face with my SPW 251/16 (flammpanzer) so the squad threw a satchel charge without stopping its movement. The HT was reversing by then, and the satchel charge took a tall, arcing trajectory, then hit the corner of tall, light building that the squad was running towards (and the HT was reversing next to). The charge disappeared when its graphic intersected the wall graphic, and a second later there was a large explosion just on the outside of the building, at the upper floor level (looked just like a treeburst). By this time, the throwing squad was just outside the building at ground level, and was reduced from seven effectives to one or two (can't remember) when the blast went off.

Moral of the story - don't move in the same direction as a demo charge you've just thrown until _after_ it goes boom.

[Gyrene]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> Moral of the story - don't move in the same direction as a demo charge you've just thrown until _after_ it goes boom. <hr></blockquote>

I've had some of my tank-assaulting infantry get hurt by grenades thrown by the other squads assaulting the tank with it.

Gyrene

[jwxspoon]

I did not use grenades in combat, being either too far away or too close when the action came up, but I was always quite nervous with hand grenades. In practice it was always quite an adrenaline rush to throw a live grenade, and my accuracy suffered as a result. In combat I wasn't putting my CAR-15 down for anything. Handling a live grenade is a two handed operation for me because I can just picture old butterfingers Weatherspoon dropping the live grenade at my feet, or lobbing the pin and dropping the grenade.

In Panama this happened to a guy I knew from 7th SF Group. We were extensively trained in room clearing and CQB and still when push came to shove he threw in his grenade and followed it into the room. Didn't kill him but screwed him up pretty bad. Another screwup in Panama that I remember was a guy throwing a grenade through an open door, not realizing there was a screen door closed there. Of course the grenade came right back at him. That one didn't kill him either, but it was a significant emotional event.

JW

[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: jwxspoon ]</p>

[CMplayer]

In the book The Thin Red Line during an assault on some bunkers, they throw a grenade in only to have it come flying right back out. The Japanese soldiers were quick to react, and tossed it back which rattled the good guys some. Witt, the Kentuckyian drawled sumpin like: do it lahk this... then he pulled the pin and held the grenade in his left hand, shot randomly in through the door one handed with his rifle and then tossed the grenade in directly after. The point was to suppress them a bit first.

[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: CMplayer ]</p>