Grenade Range

[Brian]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gyrene:

"Rounders" sounds like something that little girls play and I have to say that I've yet to see any sport which requires faster and more accurate throwing than baseball, cricket included.

<hr></blockquote>

Then I would suggest you have not seen much Test standard Cricket then. When you see a ball bowled down the crease at over 150 mph, and it hits a set of stumps no more than 12 inches across, being vigorously protected by a batsman whose job it is to prevent the stumps being hit, then you'll know all about speed and accuracy. If you want an analyse of the sort of speeds that Cricket bowlers regularly achieve, look at http://www.cricket.org/link_to_database/STATS/FC/BOWLING/BOWLING_SPEEDS.html. While the quickest reference I could find made the statement on typical speeds: "such as baseball pitching (108 to 135 kph with a maximum of 162 kph recorded in a US major league game, Atwater, 1979)[ http://www.education.ed.ac.uk/waterpolo/papers/kb2.html ]

Cricket speeds seem at least comparable and in many cases appreciably higher.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>

I wasn't born in a playing baseball playing country, didn't grow up playing it and I can't throw one to save my life, but despite of whatever Eurocentric prejudice one may have against baseball no one with any real knowledge of the sport can deny that distance, speed and accuracy throwing are the heart of the sport. Have you ever seen an outfielder lob the ball in to home from deep center? Or a shortstop send it to first on the bounce? There's a reason why first basemen's and catcher's gloves are so heavily padded to.

<hr></blockquote>

How am I being "eurocentric" for simply pointing out that Cricket is at least comparable and it appears in some cases superior to Baseball for speed and accuracy? I'd suggest that your original statement was if anything Americanocentric. You made the claim that somehow the fact many Americans/Canadians play baseball made them better grenade throwers. I merely pointed that the very same attributes that you claim exist soley or in a superior form for Baseball, also exist for Cricket and Rounders.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>

The argument is moot to an extent as the proper grenade throwing method is the overhand lob and drop, but if I had to really launch a smoke or frag grenade farther than normal range I'd look for the guy that play High School Baseball, but of course odds are your average Brit and German squads won't have one of those, then I'd have to find a grenade launcher I guess.

Gyrene<hr></blockquote>

Each to their own. I'd look for a good all round cricketer, myself. Perhaps a medium pace or speed bowler.

Next you'll be trying to tell me that the US Army tried to develop a frisbee shaped grenade because it believed "American kids can throw one more accurately than other kids".

[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: Brian ]

[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: Brian ]</p>

[edward_n_kelly]

By the way are we talking about:

- offensive or defensive grenades, the German "six head" demolition charge (six "potato mashers" looped together) or the German "egg" grenades, "Gammon" bombs or "Hawkins" Mines or "Mills" bombs, or what - all have differnet weights and handling characterists;

- current practice or what was taught/used at the time CMx is/was set;

- lack of knowledge of various games played by various protagonists at various times (What effect did the playing of baseball by the Japanese have on their methods of despatching grenades during WWII) ?

Never let a few facts stand in the way of a good arguement based on stereotypes and predjudices.

(By the - way what is the comparison in weights and sizes between a baseball and a cricket ball ? The size of the grounds upon which they are played (in England for instance cricket grounds are much smaller than in Australia) ? Both are influences the "throwing" characteristics of the players...

[Abn_Ranger87]

My experience with hand grenades only encompasses the current M67 "baseball" model. To put it mildly, I hated working with the damn things. The fuzing is notoriously unreliable so "cooking" one off is not an option unless you happen to be a suicidal masochist. They do have their uses though, especially when it comes to clearing fortified positions. They also don't produce a location revealing signature so some teach that they are effective for night fighting (I strongly suspect these individuals because I have yet to see an instructer who says this with a patch on their right shoulder or a CIB.) Our old MOUT techniques used to rely heavily on their use. Not so anymore, now a rifle squad has to clear buildings like a SWAT team and hope no civilians get hit by accident.

As far as implementation goes, while one troop readys Mr. Bang the rest of his team/squad either pulls security or is stacked and ready to clear said bunker or building. Besides the ever so difficult to pull pin (that John Wayne thing, hope you have a good dentist if you try that hollywood horse****) there is a safty clip that holds the spoon to the body that must be popped off. While running a range on Ft. Campbell, we had to call in a very irate EOD fellow who was complaining he was too close to his ETS date for the task presented to him. One of our snuffys forgot to remove said safty clip and otherwise made a perfect through with his grenade. Pretty as a picture it sat next to an E-type silouhette unexploded. Needless to say the forgetfull troop was much abused by his NCOs...

Oh one other thing, as a few guys from 10th Mountain found out the hard way in Haiti, using a grenade on a third world shanty or hut is not a good idea...

[Vanir Ausf B]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Brian:

When you see a ball bowled down the crease at over 150 mph...<hr></blockquote>

I assume you meant 150 kph.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Cricket speeds seem at least comparable and in many cases appreciably higher.<hr></blockquote>

While I agree with your basic arguement that Americans don't have a monopoly on strong throwing arms, the latter half of the above statement appears to be in error. Going from the page you linked to, the fastest cricket pitch recorded was 160.57 kph by a JR Thomson in 1976. This compared to Nolan Ryan's 1979 baseball record of 160.64 kph. It is interesting to note that a half dozen or so recent baseball pitchers have reportedly been clocked at speeds above Nolan Ryan's record, up to 164.8 kph. But they are "unofficial" figures for whatever reason.

The 108-135 kph figure given for typical baseball pitching speeds is misleading, at least at the professional level. It is true to a point because most pitches are curveballs, sliders, change-ups, ect. where the pitcher is not trying to throw the ball as fast as he can, but rather is trying to make the ball move through the air in a certain way to confuse the batter. It is misleading because nearly all professional pitchers can throw a fastball in the 144 kph range. Many can hit 150 and the fastest will often hit 158.

BTW, you need to remove the "." at the end of your first link for it to work.

[ 01-03-2002: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ]</p>

[massimorocca]

Anyway, I remember to have reading in Strong Men armed by Robert Leckie the story of a good college pitcher that catched and throwed a lot of japanese grenades that falled on his landing craft, I think in Tarawa. He saved his buddies and silenced also some japanese mg, before the last exploded smashing his arm.

[Caesar]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>

Sounds silly, but throwing things far and accurately is common skill with most North American youth.

Gyrene

<hr></blockquote>

I think you should perhaps take a wee look at a game of cricket at the Melbourne Cricket Ground and watch fast bowlers achieving around 150 km/h deliveries and all fielders expected to be able to return a ball from the boundry to right over the stumps (three sticks in the ground about three feet high and placed a few inches apart). I have seen many fielders (none of them North Americans) able to hit a single stump. I would also think that the over arm bowling action used in cricket is probably more similar to the grenade throwing action than the baseball pitching action. Right next door to Aus you have New Zealand - the world softball champions (that's one of those stange world competitions where the whole world is invited not just North America)

[Brian]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

I assume you meant 150 kph.

<hr></blockquote>

Yes. My apologies. Came from mixing units of measurement I think (imperial and metric).

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>

While I agree with your basic arguement that Americans don't have a monopoly on strong throwing arms, the latter half of the above statement appears to be in error. Going from the page you linked to, the fastest cricket pitch recorded was 160.57 kph by a JR Thomson in 1976. This compared to Nolan Ryan's 1979 baseball record of 160.64 kph. It is interesting to note that a half dozen or so recent baseball pitchers have reportedly been clocked at speeds above Nolan Ryan's record, up to 164.8 kph. But they are "unofficial" figures for whatever reason.

The 108-135 kph figure given for typical baseball pitching speeds is misleading, at least at the professional level. It is true to a point because most pitches are curveballs, sliders, change-ups, ect. where the pitcher is not trying to throw the ball as fast as he can, but rather is trying to make the ball move through the air in a certain way to confuse the batter. It is misleading because nearly all professional pitchers can throw a fastball in the 144 kph range. Many can hit 150 and the fastest will often hit 158.

<hr></blockquote>

Most Cricket bowling is also slower than the highest indicated speed, as it also is intent on misleading the batsman. However, when we are discussing speed bowling, then most of them would be up in the comparable range to that of the best baseball pitchers.

My gripe, as you noted, was with Gyrene's obviously nationalistic sentiment which attempted to claim that only Americans can throw an object with speed and accuracy, because of their national passion with their variation on the game of Rounders.

I wonder what he'd have been saying if Baseball hadn't taken off at the end of the 19th century, replacing Cricket (yes, Americans did play Cricket! By the 1880's apparently there were more Cricketers in the USA than in Great Britain)?

[Gyrene]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>I think you should perhaps take a wee look at a game of cricket at the Melbourne Cricket Ground and watch fast bowlers achieving around 150 km/h deliveries and all fielders expected to be able to return a ball from the boundry to right over the stumps (three sticks in the ground about three feet high and placed a few inches apart). <hr></blockquote>

This argument will go back and forth until the end of time. Do you know how big a strike zone in baseball is? Does a cricket bowler make the ball curve on purpose? Most important of all: Does a cricket bowler throw the ball without running? A baseball pitcher does in while standing over the same spot, ask any student of physics if a cricket bowler's run adds to his throw speed or not.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> I have seen many fielders (none of them North Americans) able to hit a single stump.<hr></blockquote>

And the last Australian or New Zealander Major League Baseball star was....

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> Right next door to Aus you have New Zealand - the world softball champions (that's one of those stange world competitions where the whole world is invited not just North America) <hr></blockquote>

On the same token New Zealand has a zero World baseball rating. Competitive Softball in the US is a woman's sport (Not a joke, ask anyone else) or an informal company picnic game.

As for strange World competitions, at least the US made it to this year's World Cup

Gyrene

[Andreas]

While I neither care nor know much about either of the sports in question, anyone saying that Cricket has anything to do with Eurocentrism should have a look at a game played between, say, India and New Zealand in India, where you easily get tens of thousands of people to come and visit, compared to a few hundred in the UK (which, BTW is the only European country left playing on the international stage).

Oh, and there is a true world league for cricket (in which the Pommies do gratifyingly bad), while the Baseball 'World Series' seems to fail to take in anything outside the US?

What does all this have to do with getting grenades on target BTW? Last I checked you lobbed them.

[Gyrene]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> My gripe, as you noted, was with Gyrene's obviously nationalistic sentiment which attempted to claim that only Americans can throw an object with speed and accuracy, because of their national passion with their variation on the game of Rounders.

I wonder what he'd have been saying if Baseball hadn't taken off at the end of the 19th century, replacing Cricket (yes, Americans did play Cricket! By the 1880's apparently there were more Cricketers in the USA than in Great Britain)?

<hr></blockquote>

Only Americans can throw? I'd suggest you go back and re-read my post, you obviously weren't paying attention.

From one of your posts a while back:

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>

*SIGH*, appears you have forgotten that both Cricket and Rounders (which is erroneous called "Baseball" in the United States) <hr></blockquote>

First is your condescending "sigh" and second is your claim that what hundreds of millions of people call baseball is "erroneous"

And so baseball was based on another game? Does that makes it less legitimate than cricket? Does it really bother you so much that cricket has almost no appeal whatsoever in the US?

Your pompous tone is what set me off, you might as well start referring to it as "That child's game played in the Colonies"

Gyrene

[Brian]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Andreas:

While I neither care nor know much about either of the sports in question, anyone saying that Cricket has anything to do with Eurocentrism should have a look at a game played between, say, India and New Zealand in India, where you easily get tens of thousands of people to come and visit, compared to a few hundred in the UK (which, BTW is the only European country left playing on the international stage).

<hr></blockquote>

France is actually making a bid to enter the top league of cricketing nations, Andreas.

China is also making a serious effort to get involved in Cricket (don't ask me why, I have no idea).

Having been in India when the World Series Cup was being played in Australia, I can testify to that nation's cricket interest. I can well remember the railway platforms being crowded with fans, seeking to watch the satellite telecast for free on the railway station's closed circuit TV system. The din when Indian bowlers took a wicket was deafening! :eek:

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>

Oh, and there is a true world league for cricket (in which the Pommies do gratifyingly bad), while the Baseball 'World Series' seems to fail to take in anything outside the US?

<hr></blockquote>

Be fair. Don't the Canadians get invited to play as well?

During the recent Cricket Bribery scandal, one of the best comments was that the Poms didn't appear to be involved - no one would pay them to play badly, they did for free.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>

What does all this have to do with getting grenades on target BTW? Last I checked you lobbed them.<hr></blockquote>

That was the old method. The new method is a simple throw. The old method was in fact much better suited to the bowling action of a cricketer than to a baseball pitcher.

[ 01-03-2002: Message edited by: Brian ]</p>

[Vanir Ausf B]

I think the Grenade Toss should be made an official sport at the next Olympics. Then we can settle this once and for all.

[Webs]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>And the last Australian or New Zealander Major League Baseball star was....<hr></blockquote>

Probably Dave Nilsson, catcher (1999 All-Star). The next will be Luke Prokopec, pitcher. Gotta love his K/BB ratio.

[Brian]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gyrene:

First is your condescending "sigh" and second is your claim that what hundreds of millions of people call baseball is "erroneous"

<hr></blockquote>

It is. Baseball is merely "Rounders" by another name. Americans seem, as you do, to believe that "Baseball" is a uniquely American sport. It isn't. As I pointed out, in response to your attempts to belittle Cricket, the USA had in the 1880's more Cricketers, before "Baseball" took off in the public consciousness than Britain did. Would you be arguing just as passionately if your national sport had been created on the playing fields of Eton?

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>

And so baseball was based on another game? Does that makes it less legitimate than cricket? Does it really bother you so much that cricket has almost no appeal whatsoever in the US?

<hr></blockquote>

Yes. No. Nope.

Does it bother you that when your nation holds a "World Series", it only invites its nearest neighbour to play?

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>

Your pompous tone is what set me off, you might as well start referring to it as "That child's game played in the Colonies"

Gyrene<hr></blockquote>

Ha! Pot, this is kettle, over.

Who was it that claimed, "Are these baseball playing Americans and Canadians you are talking about, or Brits & Germans?

Sounds silly, but throwing things far and accurately is common skill with most North American youth."

You're right, it does sound silly. Its also wrong as I pointed out.

[imported_Hiram Sedai]

Oh, yes. Let me proclaim a loud and hearty "Hi, Mom!! We hope you're enjoying your latest John Keegan book and that your arthritis is bothering you too much this year.

[Croda]

Being the initiator of this thread, I have to ask a question: What in the Sam Hell did you people go and do to it? ChristonCrutches a cricket debate. I take it we settled on the fact that the Mark II Frag grenade was tossed or lobbed and not heaved as MoH would have you believe. That was what I was curious to know. Thanks for your input. You may now return to your regularly scheduled 'My Daddy can beat up your Daddy'-athon.

[Seanachai]

I believe that if either of the games this thread appears to be about were played with handgrenades, they'd be a damn sight more interesting. In America, for one, they'd finally justify the salaries handed down.

Equally, had the war been fought with baseballs or cricket balls it would have been far more amusing.

[Chupacabra]

Brian:

In response to this: "It is. Baseball is merely "Rounders" by another name." - Not true. Having grown up in the US, lived in the UK, and played both sports, it just isn't so. They're similar, but you might as well say that football (soccer, not American) is the same as field hockey because they both involve shooting a ball into a goal.

Oh, it's also not true to suggest that baseball is only played by Americans. We've got tons of Latin Americans, an increasing number of Koreans, and the greatest home run hitter of all time was Japanese (Sadaharu Oh). Is baseball played in as many places as cricket is? No, probably not. Does it really matter?

May I also suggest that this entire argument is pretty much bull**** since I don't see anyone anywhere implying that Brits can't do things with balls? Well, except for Shane Warne, maybe

[imported_Hiram Sedai]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Croda:

Being the initiator of this thread, I have to ask a question: What in the Sam Hell did you people go and do to it? ChristonCrutches a cricket debate. I take it we settled on the fact that the Mark II Frag grenade was tossed or lobbed and not heaved as MoH would have you believe. That was what I was curious to know. Thanks for your input. You may now return to your regularly scheduled 'My Daddy can beat up your Daddy'-athon.<hr></blockquote>

Being one of the people who replied to this thread and not the initiator, I have to ask this question: Whose your daddy?

[Gyrene]

Croda: Sorry for ruining your thread, and yes the grenades in MOH are being thrown too far.

Brian: Baseball is just Rounders, American Football is merely Rugby, Basketball is merely Hoopsies Doopsies.

Brian, do you even know how baseball is played? Do you honestly believe that the rules are identical to rounders??

Now go comb these fields of eton of your and fins the spot where I said that baseball is a purely American creation.

Gyrene

[Silvio Manuel]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Croda:

You may now return to your regularly scheduled 'My Daddy can beat up your Daddy'-athon.<hr></blockquote>

I recall that when I was in 2nd grade, we did "my dad is OLDER than your dad."

The one time I threw a (paintball) grenade, I believe I used a sidearm delivery. Damned thing landed to softly on some leaves and didn't go off, though.

[Croda]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Hiram Sedai:

Being one of the people who replied to this thread and not the initiator, I have to ask this question: Whose your daddy?<hr></blockquote>

My Daddy's name is Dave and he'd kick your Daddy's ass if it wasn't for that tragic Cotton Candy incident...too...painful to...talk about...

Gyrene: No sweat. I'd like to see any of those Cricket guys hit a Clemens split-finger fastball. Cricket sounds like 'Hit-the-Bat' that we used to play in 3rd grade. [/ugly American Mode]

Sports are great. It will be nice when we finally have a sport that the entire world takes part in. I think Soccer (Football) will be the closest thing and it will be a bit before the US can truly hold it's own with the big guys. I suppose Hockey is getting to that stage, and you always have boxing (friggin' Cuba). But we're almost there. Of course, almost only counts in horseshoes and Hand Grenades and that brings us full circle.

[jshandorf]

I think Cricket is inferior to Baseball because. honestly.. when is the last time you have seen a good knock down drag out fight at a cricket game? Never, I tell you! And even if they did consider matching knuckle sandwiches they would all look like a bunch of fairies bobbing and poking at each other dressed up in those sissy pants and polo sweaters, and don't even get me started on the "retardo-time out" helmets they got on. Sheeesh... I could see it now…

Batter - “Pardon, me sir. That ball came awfully close to my sissy white pants. I say why don’t you back it off a bit, hmmm?”

Bowler – “Are you talking to me, sir? Are you talking to meeeee, sir?”

Batter – “Why, yes I am, sir.”

Bowler – “How dare you, sir, use that tone of voice with me? If I didn’t have this sissy fuzzy sweater on I would make you take those words back!”

Batter – “Oooh.. Don’t let that stop you. Rioght now! Arms up! Defend yourself!”

Bowler – “Yeees lets, oops! Look at time! Isn’t time for tea?”

Batter – “Right you are! Lets pop off and get a spot!”

Bowler – “Oh, cheerio’ indeed. Good call, sir. Good call.”

Fade to black with Niel Diamond song playing…

God help us,

Jeff

[edward_n_kelly]

Anyway - for the subject that originally brought this all on .....

I would assume the "lob" or even a "round-arm" (both straight elbow) methods was used by the Allies because of the size and particularly the weight of the "beast" they were despatching.

Other nations like the Germans because of the nature and/or weight of their "beasties" may or may not have used the above methods.

Grenades by their nature are not necessarily accurate, reliable or appropriate to use for longer ranges (eg over 30m) or very short ranges (under 10m) - the latter because of fuse length (having to release the lever 'cos the opposition may take a fancy to throwing it back !) and lethal range (in the open particularly).

Chucking them around in urban and heavy underbrush environments have their own problems. It can be prevented it from getting far enough or even "bouncing-back". Extreme slopes can also cause a problem (rolling back on you !)

Remember the Mk2 or Mills 36 grenade are rated under modern classifications as defensive grenades (fragmentation) for despatch from protection. Offensive grenades are blast/flash for immobilising the opposition while your own troops do not necessarily have a lot of protection).

Some grenades can change their characteristics (eg addition or removal of a fragmentation sleeve) like the sleeve that fitted on some some German grenades.

Anyway - back to the "slagging".

Edward

PS SA requires 262 to avoid the follow-on and only 6 wickets left....

[Brian]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gyrene:

Croda: Sorry for ruining your thread, and yes the grenades in MOH are being thrown too far.

<hr></blockquote>

Good to see you acknowledging your error.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>

Brian: Baseball is just Rounders, American Football is merely Rugby, Basketball is merely Hoopsies Doopsies.

<hr></blockquote>

Actually, Rugby is a variant on Football (what the rest of the world refers to as Football that is, not Gridiron Football)...

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>

Brian, do you even know how baseball is played? Do you honestly believe that the rules are identical to rounders??

<hr></blockquote>

Didn't claim it was. Merely pointed out its roots are in Rounders. The two are basically the same. That does not suggest it is impossible that Baseball has evolved away from the original game.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>

Now go comb these fields of eton of your and fins the spot where I said that baseball is a purely American creation.

Gyrene<hr></blockquote>

You didn't. You claimed it somehow made Americans super-soldiers because of their supposedly superior ability to chuck a ball. It doesn't. No more than Cricket does or Rounders or throwing a Frisbee.

As for the playing fields of Eton, I don't need to comb them for anything. Afterall, it was on them, that an Empire was founded.