CMx2 Interface, my hopes

[Vedric]

Lets face it the 3D navigation interface in the CM series is terribly dated. I played games in the 80's that used little icons for navigation. In fact the first computer game I ever played "Dungeon Master" for the Atari-ST and Amiga used little icon buttons for moving around. Don't even get me started on the arrow keys and their snail pace functionality in CM.

Hopefully you grogs and more importantly the developers realize there is a defacto interface standard out there for navigating in a 3D environment. It all began with ID software and FPS games way back when. Since this time every FPS clone made has used these simple fundamentals for navigation. Later the Total War series adopted something similar, although it was a bit sloppy. Finally the first actual War Game (that I'm aware of) to adopt this standard is Civil War Bull Run. Now Total War and CWBR are real time affairs and some might argue fluid and intuitive movement in CM is not needed because of the orders phase. I completely disagree with this. I am actually put off when playing CMBB and CMAK because of the navigation interface. Anyone used to navigating in a 3D environment using a more modern method will be put off with the interface. I have two friends that wont play becuase of it. Think about those coming from Total War or even other RTS type games that have a developing taste for realism, want a more realistic experience, and yet navigating around during the orders phase or even during the playback phase is like going from a Ferrari to a Pinto for them. Issuing orders can be an extensive proposition, as it should be to some degree. However navigating to view terrain or to select units should be quick, intuitive and painless. What to do?

First, we need to ability to remap every hotkey in the game. Once remapped, any hotkey indicated in a tooltip on the interface should reflect the remapped key if possible. A "restore defaults" should be standard as well.

1. Shamelessly steal CTRL-Group functionality from RTS type games. This will aid in jumping around from unit to unit.

2. Forget the number based view level adjustement and move it to the mousewheel. Secondary default could be page up and page down for those without a mousewheel.

3. Make W,A,S,D the default for moving the camera Forward, Sideways Left, Backward, Sideways Right. These could be arrow keys as default for a more dated approach. This would leave your left hand further away from ctrl-groups and most hotkeys but would leave the W,A,S,D open. Some might find this more intuitive. As long as we can remap hotkeys it isn't a major issue, however I wouldn't recommend it as most new fans will be familiar with W,A,S,D.

4. Turning the camera is done by holding down the right mouse button and moving the mouse. A conventional "Mouse-Look" type feature. A reverse axis function is needed for flight sim junkies that want to look down by moving the mouse .. up. The beauty of mouselook is it's combined use with W,A,S,D for simultaneous 3 axis camera movement. This is the most intuitive and accurate method of moving and looking around in a 3D environment on a PC. It becomes second nature in no time.

Having adjustable sensitivity with the two functions outlined above is absolutely critical to allowing people the flexability to adapt. Walk around the office and play with other peoples mice. Chances are, depending on how extensive mousing is within common aplications, none of them feel as good as your own. People need to have this adjustability and it applies to each type of movement within a 3D environment. The best RTS games allow you to adjust camera speed. The best FPS games you can adjust mouse sensitivity.

For examples of what I mean by fluid camera movement download the action RTS demo of Codename Panzers. The camera has slight acceleration and deceleration to it and the engine is very smooth. For examples of Fluid Mouselook for perspective rotation just try the latest popular FPS game like Doom3 or HL2. Your perspective will follow your mouse imput accurately without lag or judder.

I mentioned above that the Total War series and Civil War Bull Run combined the two types of movement in their games. Medieval Total War failed miserably with mouselook fluidity. Rome was better. CWBR is on par with Rome when it comes to fluidity but without camera speed or mouse sensitivity adjustments. None are as smooth or as fluid when using mouselook in a top end shooter.

Why did I write all this? I'm sure many of you are aware of how nice a well designed interface can be in a 3D game. I wrote this in the way I did because I feel some here probably have not played a game with such an interface and have no real reference to understand how a well done interface can immerse you in the game. Navigating within the 3D environment is such a huge part of the orders and playback phase that it would be an incredible disservice to CMx2 to not take a giant leap forward in this area. The point of using a 3D environment to begin with had everything to do with immersion. A intuitive and fluid moving camera combined with the new 3D engine will take the immersion factor to another level while allowing modern functionality which is inviting to new players.

I have so much else to say but this forum isn't the place. Thanks for reading. looking forward to CMx2.

Vedric

[Midnight Warrior]

I personally don't like the way Bull Run does its mouse interface and think CM's is much better. I don't like coupling between axis (i.e. elevation angle and azimuth) in that if you want to slew in azimuth you don't want to mess up the elevation angle. What I think would be a super user interface is to replace the current arrows with buttons that configure the mouse wheel. The buttons might be 1. azimuth (;eft/right) , 2. elevation angle(i.e tilt), height (level), range, unit, HQ. The mouse wheel would control the parameter indicated by the last selected button. This would allow for one hand control (I hate having to type keys..I want to run things just with the mouse).

The operation would be something like this. Click on azimuth button and then your mousewheel lets you look left/right. Click on the tilt and the mouse wheel lets you look up and down, click on the height button and the mouse wheel lets you go up and down in height. Click on the range button and the mouse wheel moves you closer or further in range. Click on the unit button and the mouse wheel lets you step between units (like the + and - keys do now. Click on the HQ button and you step from one HQ to the next. If these buttons are made large (like the arrows are now) they will be easy to hit quickly and it will would be very quick to reconfigure the mouse wheel.

[Vedric]

Midnight Warrior, the interface I described allows you to do exactly what you want to do and so much more.

You don't have to use W,A,S,D to move around if you don't want to. This, again, is just how its done in most 3D games along with mouselook.

If you don't hold down the right mouse button the tilt and rotation won't change when you move your mouse. You will simply move the pointer as normal. Now if you wish to alter your altitude you use the mouse wheel (or whatever you map "ele-up" and "ele-down" to). If you want to slide left or right, move forward or back, or rotate left and right you simply move to the edge of the screen just as it's done now. One mouse one hand. The only addition being you can adjust the sensitivity (camera speeed) of these functions to suit your needs.

If you genuinely prefer having buttons to click over just moving to screen edge or using W,A,S,D and Mouselook then It wouldn't be difficult to keep that functionality since those functions are already built into the interface design. I would add that I believe you prefer this option because screen edge movement in CM is too slow and you never became used to using w,a,s,d and mouselook in any other game.

I like being able to move on more than one axis simultaneously. This simply can't be done using interface buttons. I want to be able to fly around watching the execution of my plans or examining terrain without taking my eyes off the screen to click a button. This to me is more immersive.

What I'm offering up here is pure accessibility for many different backgrounds of gamer. Those RTS'ers looking for realism will be familiar with screen edge movement however they will crank up the sensitivity over what is standard in CMBB and CMAK. Those that got used to navigating 3D worlds in First Person perspective type games will use W,A,S,D + Mouselook when navigating around. The Total War crowd looking for a wargame could jump right in as well. Old timers that don't want to spend time getting used to something new and improved can have buttons too. Win Win Win situation for the future of this series.

I hate to be long winded but this is the most intelligent and civil gaming community around. I simply lack the skills to explain these things in two sentences

Vedric

[GreenAsJade]

I completely agree that moving CM to the "standard" 3D navigation conventions would be a Very Good Thing.

GaJ.

[Pzman]

Originally posted by Vedric:

2. Forget the number based view level adjustement and move it to the mousewheel. Secondary default could be page up and page down for those without a mousewheel.

CM is a cross platform game, Mac mice don't come with mousewheels (unless you buy one) thus one of the reaons its not in the current game. I think CM's interface is one of the best ones I have used, and I mostly play FPS games. FPS interfaces are made for 14 year olds. Thank goodness only the smart 14 year olds play CM.

[stikkypixie]

For me it doesn't really matter what the interface is, if I play long enough I'll get used to it any way.

CM is very basic, and there is nothing wrong with that. I don't use the keyboard to move around the camera, but only the mouse.

Customization would be nice, but except for scroll speed I probably wouldn't touch it.

I don't understand the need for mouse look, it's a semi-turned based game, you have time to stop and look. But that's just me.

What I would like though is when you zoom out like level 6 or 7 instead of seeing the units, you see icons like in close combat.

[flamingknives]

The CM interface has some nice features too. The ability to rotate the view through 180º instantly is very useful, as is being able to jump between view levels. The screen edge moving is pretty good too - touch the bottom third of the sides and you translate, touch the upper two thirds and you rotate. I move the camera around more in CM than I do when I've got the full control functionality, like in Homeworld.

[flamingknives]

Oh yes, just because something's standardised, doesn't necessarily mean that it's better. I mean, real-time is the standard for strategy games, but CM is turn based.

But then, I'm also a stinkin' Mac user, own a SuperDisk Drive and, if I were old enough, I'd probably own a Betamax video recorder. Standardisation is usually not my friend.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

I actually like the CM interface. It might be a bit basic but that also means it's a hell of a lot less fiddly. If you compare CM with for example the Total War games the CM wins hands down. It's a bit more restrictive with regards to view heights and angles but not in such a way that I feel I'm missing out and the trade off with ease of use is fantastic. The 'ctrl+click on map' to change location is something I greatly miss in most other games I play.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it, though customization might be a good thing. Myself, I'm happy as it is but I'll end up getting used to pretty much any scheme should BFC change it.

[Panzer76]

Originally posted by Elmar Bijlsma:

If it ain't broke, don't fix it, though customization might be a good thing.

If that was the case, then CM would still be played on turn based hexes

[ParaBellum]

Pretty much the only thing I like to see changed for the view system is mousewheel support for the different view levels and a WSAD configuration to move around. But on a second thought, the CTRL-grouping sounds like a good idea. Would make switching to different battlegroups on large maps more easy.

[Tarkus]

Interface? Interface? :eek:

Vedric concerns are quite relevant, I wonder if the camera control will change. As for me, I could use a bit more fluidity, but even though I'm playing all sorts of games, I cannot say current CM's are bad at all, at least for the way I use them. Certainly not a reason for dismay or not wanting to get into the game...

I look at the ground from static position to read its tactical potential. As such, what matters to me is stability and accuracy and that is what I expect from the next engine. The current one, I'm so use to it, I've developped shortcuts to jump from one place to another in no time, so I really am confortable with the way it is right now. 180 deg instant rotate key and the vehicle rotating chase cam are excellent things to me, too.

I guess what I'm saying is put as much fluidity and smoothness as you want in there but make sure it's easy and clear to get to the exact position you want without having to float your way there. Since that goes from bird-eye to over-your-shoulder views, it can be tricky. As it is now, I agree it's not fluid, but it really fills the bill.

Cheers

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Elmar Bijlsma:

I actually like the CM interface. It might be a bit basic but that also means it's a hell of a lot less fiddly. If you compare CM with for example the Total War games the CM wins hands down. It's a bit more restrictive with regards to view heights and angles but not in such a way that I feel I'm missing out and the trade off with ease of use is fantastic. The 'ctrl+click on map' to change location is something I greatly miss in most other games I play.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it, though customization might be a good thing. Myself, I'm happy as it is but I'll end up getting used to pretty much any scheme should BFC change it.

I agree with all of this. I would like to see the scroll wheel functionality added for something like tiltup/down on the camera angle though. Even though I am a Mac user, scroll wheel mice are dirt cheap and I have one. Wouldn't be without it now that I am used to it.

The other thing is that I wish there were some way to control the speed of the camera movement when using the mouse and/or the arrow keys. Sometimes it is painfully slow when trying to get across a large expanse of map. The on-screen arrow icons are fast, but awkward to use. I don't like them.

Michael

[darlington]

I suggest you all try ROME total war.

[For interface and camera control - Not for enemy AI:)]

That uses the wheel mouse for zoom in and out

and handles cameras very, very well.

Theres no denying, with all the good will in the world that the interface alone does make CM feel antiquated.

(Alternatively let the players be able to assign all the hot keys and controls themselves.(preferably with speed and sensitivity sliders))

Add a bit of lighting to the maps (not too much to ask for in the year 2000+) so that players can spend more time commanding and making tactical decitions rather than messing around with the LOS "stick" half of the time.

And allow Shift-M go all the way up to full squad numbers of men.

And there you'd have it. Solid gold.

[flamingknives]

Well, let's see:

Theres no denying, with all the good will in the world that the interface alone does make CM feel antiquated

Not really, I don't use the buttons on the control panel and the mouse/key combination is quick and effective. Considering that the CM graphics engine is what, six years old now? More? I think it stacks up rather well.

So, in essence, I can and will deny that the interface is that bad. I actually prefer it to some 'advanced' interfaces. Ease of use above capability that you don't need or use.

Add a bit of lighting to the maps (not too much to ask for in the year 2000+) so that players can spend more time commanding and making tactical decitions rather than messing around with the LOS "stick" half of the time.

The CM Design team at CMX2 have stated that it will feature dynamic lighting, accounting for position of the sun due to time of day, time of year and latitude, as well as being able to deal with night-time illumination (the latter is inferred rather than directly stated).

And allow Shift-M go all the way up to full squad numbers of men.

They have also stated that each man in the squad will be represented, although not controllable.

And, as a Stinkin' Mac User (SMU), I can't try Rome: total war.

If they (BFC) do go for a fully adjustable camera, my opinion is that it ought to feature the ability to easily set view levels/angles or a set of sensible ones as a default.

A query though: Why do you need to change the hotkeys? It's not like you're under much time pressure.

[Cameroon]

You need to be able to change the hotkeys so that you can control the game with keys with which you are more comfortable.

It drives me nuts that I can't change the keys to what I want. Sure it's a boring feature to add, but that doesn't make it unworthy.

And I totally agree with you, flamingknives, on being able to bookmark certain viewing positions. It would be so nice to be able to bind whatever the current view parameters are to a hotkey. I wanted that even when all you could really change was the angle of the current view.

I also wanted the sound to turn off during turn calculation, because turn processing was quantifiably faster without sound on my Mac at the time, but that's another issue entirely Hopefully it won't be an issue in CMx2 anyway.

[markl]

I would like to be able to remap the keys and have better use of the mouse as well. But for me Key's are far better to use once you get the hang of them. Look at a lot of office applications now they use the mouse instead of keys board short cuts, much harder to use.

With the curent interface there is practically no learning curve. How many of the more so called up to date interfaces can claim that?

But I have no doubt it will be updated, as that is what the market will want.

Cheers MarkL

[Pinetree]

I really like the Silent Hunter 3 free look camera,it's very intuitive and very easy to use.Why not something like that?

[Bonxa]

Why not make the basic navigation interface a toggle thing plus configurable. IIRC there is an option in the TW games to either use the classic TW camera or a more classic RTS camera. Why not be able to switch between classic CM style, RTS and FPS style cameras all with configurable buttons. Configurable buttons I know is pretty easy to implement, the other part might be slightly more work but probably worth it. This way both old CM vets and new comers would be happy.

It is a mystery to me why the CM games never got an options page where you could setup buttons, adjust graphics and sound etc etc.

[aka_tom_w]

Developement Team/Programer = ONE PERSON

that may suggest why there are so few "frills"

If you want to beef about the Game interface why not take a LONG hard look at the game editor scenario Design (map making) interface. THAT is an the PERFECT example of a programer DESIGNED graphic user interface!

(you know the one where the map is map of LOTS of little squares with numbers in them! Tell me that is not HORRENDOUS

interface design!)

-tom w

Originally posted by Bonxa:

Why not make the basic navigation interface a toggle thing plus configurable. IIRC there is an option in the TW games to either use the classic TW camera or a more classic RTS camera. Why not be able to switch between classic CM style, RTS and FPS style cameras all with configurable buttons. Configurable buttons I know is pretty easy to implement, the other part might be slightly more work but probably worth it. This way both old CM vets and new comers would be happy.

It is a mystery to me why the CM games never got an options page where you could setup buttons, adjust graphics and sound etc etc.

[ May 02, 2005, 08:21 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Vedric]

Nearly everything I outlined is in the game already. The three suggestions which aren't would be mapping hotkeys, a freelook feature, and camera speed sensitivity.

Keyboard movement is already in with the arrow keys but it's very slow without adjustment, lacks the rotate r+l fuction of the interface buttons, cannot be remapped, and has no speed adjustment. A key remap feature along with camera speed adjustment = "w,a,s,d" movement.

The zoom feature is already in with the up and down arrow keys near the interface buttons. It just can't be remapped to the mousewheel or whatever people wish to use.

The RTS style "screen edge" movement is already in but it's slow and can't be adjusted.

Mouselook is already half implemented believe it or not. Mouselook simply ties your viewpoint to the mouse cursor and it only tracks when activated. This way, when you activate it (by holding down whichever key you map it to) your viewpoint doesn't snap to where your cursor is, instead it tracks from where your viewpoint was when activated. A mouse sensitivity adjustment in game is critical for this feature. Changing desktop settings doesn't work for some reason, if it did, developers would never have taken the time to put this feature in their games.

CTRL group fuctionality is already partially in. Do you ever use "Tab" to jump to a selected unit? Well CTRL grouping would be the same except it would include a "Remember selected units as #" then it would be "Recall selected # + Tab" in use.

Quote from Pzman:

CM is a cross platform game, Mac mice don't come with mousewheels (unless you buy one) thus one of the reaons its not in the current game. I think CM's interface is one of the best ones I have used, and I mostly play FPS games. FPS interfaces are made for 14 year olds. Thank goodness only the smart 14 year olds play CM.

Then remap your zoom to something other than the mousewheel. BTW those 14 year olds that got their start playing Castle Wolfenstien are now 28+ years old. I wish I could say the same for myself . A 3D interface is either more or less capable. Your quote would suggest you think taking your eyes off screen and clicking a single button to move on a single axis is more advanced than having the capability to move on three at the same time at whatever speed you prefer. It's not. Remember, I'm not advocating the elimination of current functionality.

Quote from aka_tom_w

Developement Team/Programer = ONE PERSON

that may suggest why there are so few "frills"

That's suprising considering the success of the CM series, even if it is a smaller genre than it deserves. Does Battlefront pool talent resources to some degree for its developers then? I'm not a programmer or artist but I would gladly help if it's needed to define new functionality and work out any glitches.

Sincerely,

Vedric

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Vedric:

I'm not a programmer or artist but I would gladly help if it's needed to define new functionality and work out any glitches.

I am confident that if BFC develops an interest in pursuing your ideas, they will contact you.

Michael

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Vedric:

4. Turning the camera is done by holding down the right mouse button and moving the mouse.

And for single button mice like those used by the machines the game is developed on?

[Pzman]

Originally posted by Vedric:

Quote from Pzman:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />CM is a cross platform game, Mac mice don't come with mousewheels (unless you buy one) thus one of the reaons its not in the current game. I think CM's interface is one of the best ones I have used, and I mostly play FPS games. FPS interfaces are made for 14 year olds. Thank goodness only the smart 14 year olds play CM.

Then remap your zoom to something other than the mousewheel. BTW those 14 year olds that got their start playing Castle Wolfenstien are now 28+ years old. </font>

[KiloIndiaAlpha]

Have 'Terrain Marks'. These would work in the same way as book marks do in a document. The user would position his view point and then hit

some key combination to mark the position. Several locations could be marked. Then use another key combo. to go directly to a marked position or cycle through the set of marked positions.