Vedric

"The control scheme still needs a bit of work, particularly with selecting and commanding large groups of units" Not a good sign. Considering the past "non improvements" over several iterations with the CMx1 games this concerns me to no end. I will go on record here saying the interface will be less than functional, especially in real time mode. Probably zero or minimal remapping functionality as well (experienced guess). Sorry, I really do love what they are trying to do around here but if the interface sucks I cant get excited about a game. glhf, V

Sixxkiller, the best players in the world "as I call them" are those that compete professionally. Depending on when we are talking about these national and world level pro tournaments were Q2 Q3 or CS. However my post was not really about OFP or any FPS game but an attempt to facilitate discussion about bringing in new people to real tactical wargaming by pointing out common ground in the motivations of current mainstream gamers and what tactical wargames do and do not offer. Your quote about OFP simply lead me into a thought which lead into another thought. I should have pointed this out in the post. Sorry if I offended you. There is simply so much more depth to a wargame and depending on how this depth is presented will overwhelm many players. Steve has mentioned the use of mouseovers and this will be welcomed. Without knowing how extensively mouseovers will be in CMSF I would suggest using them for detailed unit statistics along with cover and concealment. The text could display in an invisible window to the lower left or right of screen just above the GUI. Having this much information appear over the mouse pointer would be ugly. In the tradition of Civilization and other games that have done this, I would like to see a CMopedia complete with extensive hyperlinks. The UI and how important information is presented I believe are crucial to introducing a broader range of gamers to real tactical wargames. It's all about immersion. Getting past information deficits and UI clutter is a large part of being immersed. Vedric

WARNING: This is how you redefine a thread. Read On. Actually it depends on how you define a shooter. If you look for the best competition available worldwide then OFP or RS simply were not the best shooters. The best players in the world were playing Quake3 or CS. Players which many of you probably have never played against. Insanely good and often mistaken for cheaters or bots. These players don't really care about built in tactical depth or raw numbers of vehicles. They become the depth, team vs. team. They look for few of the traditional features most of us would look for. They require weapon balance with a development team that listens to the best players and makes needed adjustments. They also require a fluidity and refinement to the gameplay that allows their aim to shine. No herky jerky movement here. It simply won't sell to this community. Accuracy is most important. They require the ability to define all their hotkeys and define the sensitivy of every axis they move within. Graphics are great but considering the lifespan of the finest shooters it clearly is not the most important criteria. RTS games have also nearly reached this stage. Nearly Identical to shooters in every respect. RTS games will require a bit more predefined balance and depth due to the nature of the game but in every other respect the best players in the world will find their way to a single title. The reason for this is simply playability and balance. Not graphics, not bump mapping or anti-aliasing. It's simple playability and the capacity of the development team to stay in touch with the bleeding edge of whatever genre they are invloved with. This in its most basic form means support through patches and a careful ear to the community. I see no reason why tactical wargaming cannot reach this level of popularity. It takes vision and an open ear. I don't know if we have these requirements yet but BFC "seems" to understand this to "some" degree. I'm not fully confident tactical wargaming can reach the mainstream without the best of tactical wargaming devlopment teams reaching out to the mainstream "RTS/Tactical RTS" community with genuinely playable titles that maintain the depth we all love but package it in such a way that a veteran RTS (or even FPS) types can appreciate. You all may think genuine mainstream tactical wargaming is a pipe dream but I would remind you of the success Panzer General had in it's day. Not exactly a perfect "grog" game, it however did redefine many grog concepts and had mainstream success. Developers at the time watered down many of the concepts and failed to build on what made PG a success. This is a failure of the core industry not the publishers. These people will publish whatever sells. Some of you reading this may recognize this rant. I would simply say I'm here to help. Just a smidgen of credit for pounding this hope is all i ask. Think about what it is these FPS and RTS people are doing for endless hours online. They are going over tactics, defining a "skill base" and seperating into clans, practicing new strategy for the next confrontation, developing their tactical and twitch skills within the game system they use. Beyond that they are doing it with friends and having a damn good time. You tell me how tactical wargaming cannot fit within this industry and I will show you a defeatist that lacks the.. well you get the idea. Yes you can move this thread to its own if you wish. I've exhausted my myself here. Vedric

Good question MD. I honestly have no idea. The game is well aged and the module community has been hard at work. Who knows what you may find. Good Luck! Vedric

If you still enjoy RPG's Bioware's Neverwinter Nights has exactly this flexibility. I'm sure there are hundreds of user created modules available for it. I've never played any of them so I can't judge their quality but I know the creation editor was very powerful. The exact tools bioware used to create their official campaign if I'm not mistaken. Edit: I feel obligated to say NWN had some problems. You only controlled a single character and you could use one AI controlled henchmen. The system was sloppy and the "henchmen AI" was less than intelligent. This is clearly dumbed down from the Baldur's Gate series. Combat is much more hack and slash compared to the more tactical combat of Baldurs Gate also. Vedric [ November 16, 2005, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: Vedric ]

Check out Civil War: Bull Run from Mad Minute Games. A very well made and playable tactical american civil war game. Its their first release and is hugely impressive. No scenario seems to ever play the same. The AI is totally non-scripted. I expect great things from these guys. Lacks a bit of depth when it comes to troop type but it's an early engagement within the ACW and accurate. You can take command of a regiment through division to full army command. Overall, some refinement could be made but it is completely playable in a very good way and I consider myself anal when it comes to playability and refinement. I started with pong forgive me. Vedric "Omg spearmen have attack bonuses against horse archers" -Random Civ4 quote

I don't post here often but if you were to review my post history you would see how perfectly this fits into my concerns with past CM games and the future of the series. I must say fantastic! Will keyboard commands be user configurable? This is an absolute must have. Integrating the raw number of commands CMSF will have into an intuitive interface is a tough challenge. Doing so in a way that works intuitively for everyone is impossible. I'm unsure how you guys have been using the new UI but I can give you a perfect example of how i would use user configurable hotkeys based on the UI information released. First, if camera movement is being done with the arrow keys I would change these to "esdf". Next I would change the "mcsa" in the command panel to "qwrt". Other non command panel functions would also be bound to keys near my primary "esdf" location. This locks my left hand in place never needing to lift and move my hand anywhere else on the keyboard or having to look down at the keyboard while doing so. My right hand will obviously work the mouse and might even be used for command panel actions. If taking my hand off the mouse and using the keypad is faster i will learn that but honestly I don't like the idea of having to remove my hands from the interface .. base or foundation. The keypad is an acquired skill ive yet to acquire . UI scaling is another issue that needs to be addressed. Digital flat panel screens are everywhere and im sure you're aware they truly only look good in native resolutions. This sounds harmless but when you consider the larger panels with resolutions of 1600 x 1200 or higher the UI can shrink to a near useless size. Civilization 4 is a prime example of this. On my 1600 x 1200 LCD the "G" part of the GUI is simply too small. I'm very much looking forward to CMSF. Vedric

I had three more ideas on possible interface improvements. When moving multiple units, say a platoon, allowing multiple waypoints with more than one selected unit would be nice. This should default to the same method used for single units. Along the same line, allowing you to assign the same firing arc to all units selected would make preparing for an infantry advance somewhat less intensive when you just want to limit their firing range while seeking the enemy line. To add to firing arc functionality I would like to see a facing tool for the arc. Instead of redrawing a new arc you simply move its center. This would work like the "rotate to" tool for vehicles. You hit your hotkey or select from the menu then click on the map to alter the facing of the arc. Without changing the width or depth of the arc the squad (or turret) now centers in a new direction. Vedric

If you haven't read the whole thread and figured it out for yourself I can answer this for you. A. Don't use the mouselook feature. Just stick to whatever you use in BB and AK. B. Remap the mouselook button to another key. Also, built in redundancy is easy. Much the same as RMB and Spacebar opens up the orders panel. C. Buy one of them fancy new two button +wheel mice! I like this too. I played a game that did this but can't remember it's name for my life. It had the typical RTS style CTRL+# for unit bookmarks along with CTRL+F-keys for camera bookmarks. It could remember the exact camera x,y,z +tilt and facing then simply recall to that location. Vedric

Nearly everything I outlined is in the game already. The three suggestions which aren't would be mapping hotkeys, a freelook feature, and camera speed sensitivity. Keyboard movement is already in with the arrow keys but it's very slow without adjustment, lacks the rotate r+l fuction of the interface buttons, cannot be remapped, and has no speed adjustment. A key remap feature along with camera speed adjustment = "w,a,s,d" movement. The zoom feature is already in with the up and down arrow keys near the interface buttons. It just can't be remapped to the mousewheel or whatever people wish to use. The RTS style "screen edge" movement is already in but it's slow and can't be adjusted. Mouselook is already half implemented believe it or not. Mouselook simply ties your viewpoint to the mouse cursor and it only tracks when activated. This way, when you activate it (by holding down whichever key you map it to) your viewpoint doesn't snap to where your cursor is, instead it tracks from where your viewpoint was when activated. A mouse sensitivity adjustment in game is critical for this feature. Changing desktop settings doesn't work for some reason, if it did, developers would never have taken the time to put this feature in their games. CTRL group fuctionality is already partially in. Do you ever use "Tab" to jump to a selected unit? Well CTRL grouping would be the same except it would include a "Remember selected units as #" then it would be "Recall selected # + Tab" in use. Quote from Pzman: Then remap your zoom to something other than the mousewheel. BTW those 14 year olds that got their start playing Castle Wolfenstien are now 28+ years old. I wish I could say the same for myself . A 3D interface is either more or less capable. Your quote would suggest you think taking your eyes off screen and clicking a single button to move on a single axis is more advanced than having the capability to move on three at the same time at whatever speed you prefer. It's not. Remember, I'm not advocating the elimination of current functionality. Quote from aka_tom_w That's suprising considering the success of the CM series, even if it is a smaller genre than it deserves. Does Battlefront pool talent resources to some degree for its developers then? I'm not a programmer or artist but I would gladly help if it's needed to define new functionality and work out any glitches. Sincerely, Vedric

MikeyD, Is that the same engine CMx2 will be using? Looks nice enough but I know little about it.

Midnight Warrior, the interface I described allows you to do exactly what you want to do and so much more. You don't have to use W,A,S,D to move around if you don't want to. This, again, is just how its done in most 3D games along with mouselook. If you don't hold down the right mouse button the tilt and rotation won't change when you move your mouse. You will simply move the pointer as normal. Now if you wish to alter your altitude you use the mouse wheel (or whatever you map "ele-up" and "ele-down" to). If you want to slide left or right, move forward or back, or rotate left and right you simply move to the edge of the screen just as it's done now. One mouse one hand. The only addition being you can adjust the sensitivity (camera speeed) of these functions to suit your needs. If you genuinely prefer having buttons to click over just moving to screen edge or using W,A,S,D and Mouselook then It wouldn't be difficult to keep that functionality since those functions are already built into the interface design. I would add that I believe you prefer this option because screen edge movement in CM is too slow and you never became used to using w,a,s,d and mouselook in any other game. I like being able to move on more than one axis simultaneously. This simply can't be done using interface buttons. I want to be able to fly around watching the execution of my plans or examining terrain without taking my eyes off the screen to click a button. This to me is more immersive. What I'm offering up here is pure accessibility for many different backgrounds of gamer. Those RTS'ers looking for realism will be familiar with screen edge movement however they will crank up the sensitivity over what is standard in CMBB and CMAK. Those that got used to navigating 3D worlds in First Person perspective type games will use W,A,S,D + Mouselook when navigating around. The Total War crowd looking for a wargame could jump right in as well. Old timers that don't want to spend time getting used to something new and improved can have buttons too. Win Win Win situation for the future of this series. I hate to be long winded but this is the most intelligent and civil gaming community around. I simply lack the skills to explain these things in two sentences Vedric

Lets face it the 3D navigation interface in the CM series is terribly dated. I played games in the 80's that used little icons for navigation. In fact the first computer game I ever played "Dungeon Master" for the Atari-ST and Amiga used little icon buttons for moving around. Don't even get me started on the arrow keys and their snail pace functionality in CM. Hopefully you grogs and more importantly the developers realize there is a defacto interface standard out there for navigating in a 3D environment. It all began with ID software and FPS games way back when. Since this time every FPS clone made has used these simple fundamentals for navigation. Later the Total War series adopted something similar, although it was a bit sloppy. Finally the first actual War Game (that I'm aware of) to adopt this standard is Civil War Bull Run. Now Total War and CWBR are real time affairs and some might argue fluid and intuitive movement in CM is not needed because of the orders phase. I completely disagree with this. I am actually put off when playing CMBB and CMAK because of the navigation interface. Anyone used to navigating in a 3D environment using a more modern method will be put off with the interface. I have two friends that wont play becuase of it. Think about those coming from Total War or even other RTS type games that have a developing taste for realism, want a more realistic experience, and yet navigating around during the orders phase or even during the playback phase is like going from a Ferrari to a Pinto for them. Issuing orders can be an extensive proposition, as it should be to some degree. However navigating to view terrain or to select units should be quick, intuitive and painless. What to do? First, we need to ability to remap every hotkey in the game. Once remapped, any hotkey indicated in a tooltip on the interface should reflect the remapped key if possible. A "restore defaults" should be standard as well. 1. Shamelessly steal CTRL-Group functionality from RTS type games. This will aid in jumping around from unit to unit. 2. Forget the number based view level adjustement and move it to the mousewheel. Secondary default could be page up and page down for those without a mousewheel. 3. Make W,A,S,D the default for moving the camera Forward, Sideways Left, Backward, Sideways Right. These could be arrow keys as default for a more dated approach. This would leave your left hand further away from ctrl-groups and most hotkeys but would leave the W,A,S,D open. Some might find this more intuitive. As long as we can remap hotkeys it isn't a major issue, however I wouldn't recommend it as most new fans will be familiar with W,A,S,D. 4. Turning the camera is done by holding down the right mouse button and moving the mouse. A conventional "Mouse-Look" type feature. A reverse axis function is needed for flight sim junkies that want to look down by moving the mouse .. up. The beauty of mouselook is it's combined use with W,A,S,D for simultaneous 3 axis camera movement. This is the most intuitive and accurate method of moving and looking around in a 3D environment on a PC. It becomes second nature in no time. Having adjustable sensitivity with the two functions outlined above is absolutely critical to allowing people the flexability to adapt. Walk around the office and play with other peoples mice. Chances are, depending on how extensive mousing is within common aplications, none of them feel as good as your own. People need to have this adjustability and it applies to each type of movement within a 3D environment. The best RTS games allow you to adjust camera speed. The best FPS games you can adjust mouse sensitivity. For examples of what I mean by fluid camera movement download the action RTS demo of Codename Panzers. The camera has slight acceleration and deceleration to it and the engine is very smooth. For examples of Fluid Mouselook for perspective rotation just try the latest popular FPS game like Doom3 or HL2. Your perspective will follow your mouse imput accurately without lag or judder. I mentioned above that the Total War series and Civil War Bull Run combined the two types of movement in their games. Medieval Total War failed miserably with mouselook fluidity. Rome was better. CWBR is on par with Rome when it comes to fluidity but without camera speed or mouse sensitivity adjustments. None are as smooth or as fluid when using mouselook in a top end shooter. Why did I write all this? I'm sure many of you are aware of how nice a well designed interface can be in a 3D game. I wrote this in the way I did because I feel some here probably have not played a game with such an interface and have no real reference to understand how a well done interface can immerse you in the game. Navigating within the 3D environment is such a huge part of the orders and playback phase that it would be an incredible disservice to CMx2 to not take a giant leap forward in this area. The point of using a 3D environment to begin with had everything to do with immersion. A intuitive and fluid moving camera combined with the new 3D engine will take the immersion factor to another level while allowing modern functionality which is inviting to new players. I have so much else to say but this forum isn't the place. Thanks for reading. looking forward to CMx2. Vedric

Never use 180 degree cover arcs if you want your covering squads to target within a specific area of suspect or even revealed enemy positions. The AI sometimes will target an enemy thats not a threat to your advancing squads. Check LOS for your covering squads. If they dont have LOS they cant cover. You will need to advance them into a position they can see the area they need to cover. Use narrower cover arcs while advancing. If possible use other elements of your force to cover their advance as well. If close to the enemy, use the advance command for your assult squads instead of move to contact. While its tiring for the troops its more effective for taking ground. If none of this works you're walking into a firestorm and even Vets will get pinned, shaken or outright killed in the face of superior fire. Hope this helps Vedric

Wait a minute! Allow me to backup a bit. Michael Emrys was exactly right. I thought he meant arrow keys not the arrow icons on the GUI. The arrow icons on the lower right of the interface are indeed much faster than mouse movement or keyboard input. However this type of system is straight out of an 80's role playing game and awkward. I cant remember games using arrow icons on the user interface for camera movement for nearly 15 years. Except CM of course. So this begs the question. Why cant they add some adjustability to the other forms of input (keyboard and mouse). Its clear the engine is NOT the limiting factor here. Perhaps update us with a small patch? Im on my knees here battlefront.. Im begging here! If anything the icons on the GUI should be slower for fine adjustment of looks, NOT the other more widely used mouse and keyboard input. All should be adjustable however.. Any response from the boys at battlefront? Thanks, Vedric

I have plenty of memory... My system specs are SOTA as of 4 months ago.. The camera is just as slow in setup phase as combat phase. I do use ctrl+click and various zoom levels. This doesnt exactly cover everything does it now? To whomever said the arrow keys are faster than the mouse, you should probably clean your mouse and update the drivers. I give up. I guess none of you understand what a smooth quick moving camera is like. Play warcraft 3, that is a fluid moving camera.. oh and its adjustable. Try Medieval: Total War for an average implementation of a 3D overhead camera yet its still lightyears smoother than CMBB and yes, adjustable also. Not to rant against CMBB at all I actually really enjoy the game. I had a friend laugh at how sticky and slow the camera is this weekend. He is a Warcraft 3 nut but it made me think. Oh well, hopefully the new engine after CMAK will solve it. cya, vedric

Yea I know zooming way out will actually get you from one place to another a bit faster.. then you need to zoom back in and (slowly) move the camera around to find the unit and of course look over the situation by moving the sluggish camera around some more. Even if you ctrl click to a place you still need to rotate (slow) to face the destination and rotate (slow) again when you get there to look around. You say you have no problems but the keyboard movement buttons are absolutely useless. Nothing can be adjusted which to me is crazy considering every game out there allows sensitivity adjustment for either input type. If you've played and become used to using the better camera systems in other games, using the system in CM is painfully inept. At any rate the questions still stand for anyone to answer. Can this be improved in CMBB? Will it be addressed in CMAK? Thanks again, Vedric

Can anything be done to speed up the camera in CMBB? The keyboard commands are useless the camera is so slow in all directions! Mouse input is better but still slow and non-fluid.. almost like its stuck in mud or something. I remember trying the demo of the first CM and actually getting turned off of an otherwise great game because of the sluggist, non-fluid nature of the camera. I purchased CMBB thinking they surely solved this by now but I was wrong. It would be nice to scroll smoothly around the battlefield much like in Medieval: Total War or every other game out there that uses an overhead camera system. Can this be improved with CMBB? If not, will it be fixed in CMAK? If its a limitation of the engine I 'very sadly' will be skipping any further titles. Thanks, Vedric