Pishky Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Please excuse my ignorance guys but what does this word actually mean and where does it come from. Thanking in advance Peter P.S the other acronym that escapes me is AFV 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl Carrot Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 AFV - Armoured Fighting Vehicle 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Google for 'grognard'. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pishky Posted December 9, 2004 Author Share Posted December 9, 2004 Dooh! I never knew that grognard was a real word and did a quick google on it. The following seems to answer the question. URL:http://www.alanemrich.com/Writing_Archive_pages/grognard.htm The Origin of the Wargaming Term "Grognard" The Limits of your Vocabulary are the Limits of your World Courtesy of Alan Emrich We frequently bandy about the term "grognard" among our fellow wargaming hobbiests. Often, online and in print publications, people have speculated about the origin of this label for veteran wargamers -- who coined this term that has been adopted as part of our hobby's lexicon, how did it get popular, and what is its root meaning? Allow me to present the real story, as told by the Dean of Board Wargaming himself, Jim Dunnigan: "The term 'grognard,' as applied to veteran wargamers, was first coined back in the early 1970's by John Young. He was, at that time, an employee for [the board] wargame publisher SPI, and the use of the term around the office (and among the local play testers) soon led to 'grognards' being mentioned in one of SPI's magazines (Strategy & Tactics). Several hundred thousand board wargamers picked up the term from that publication and it spread to computer wargamers, as the the board wargamers (the ones with PCs, of course) were the first people to snap up computer wargames when they appeared. "Consider this a first hand account, not an urban legend. I actually heard John Young utter it the first time and was one of the people who razzed him about it for some time thereafter. I was also the one who actually put the term into circulation in Strategy & Tactics [during my tenure there as Editor]. "Alas, John Young passed away in 1976 (or was it 77?). I can confirm that also; I was at the funeral. Now you know. . ." -- Jim Dunnigan Grognard: a soldier of Napoleons' Old Guard; a veteran soldier; grumbler (French) - Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd ed Grognard: (slang) an experienced wargamer - John Young, Strategy & Tactics magazine 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 The word 'grog' also refers to an alcoholic beverage that was part of the rations served in the Royal Navy that consisted of one part rum to anywhere from three to five parts water with the addition of lime or lemon juice. This of course has nothing to do with wargamers, since we are all teetotalers and never touch the stuff at all. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klapton Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Originally posted by Cpl Carrot: AFV - Armoured Fighting Vehicle Almost the same meaning of the German Panzerkampfwagen: Panzer - armoured Kampf - fighting Wagen - vehicle 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Tondu Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Historical point of fact : The word Grognard is French for "the Grumblers." Which was first coined by Napoleon I on Christmas Eve in 1807. He was referring to the finest and most experienced soldiers of the Era, -his Imperial Guard. He said it after they had spent the entire day marching in the rain -- while campainging in Poland. Think of so much rain that it filled the hats that hung at their belts. After being so cold and wet, they did the only thing they could do. Grumble about it their Emperor's presence. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 So the term seems to be evolving, from a wine-soaked grumbler, roughly on par with 'backseat driver' nowadays I suppose, to a dilletent expert in something arcane - "Oh no, a military latrine grog!" I guess those two meanings aren't really as far apart as they at first seem, considering its the grogs who do most of the grumbling about the most arcane bits on the board. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Grognard (Grognass) a) Person who, however brilliant a wargame becomes, remains forever sullen and discontented about the lack of historical detail. Person who, however bad a wargame becomes, faithfully plays the game for years anyway, c) Person demonstrating contempt of popular culture by carefully avoiding all pleasures of PC life, such as beautiful graphics, user friendly interface and fast loadtimes. Grognards are characterised by the display of unhealthy levels of interest in obscure detail. This might and might not be accompanied by impressingly uninteresting knowledge in the field in question. Only Grognards will find it interesting, sullenly impressed by the sheer level of obscurity reached by their colleagues. Game designers (paper or software) will occasionally make the mistake of addressing Grognards, in which case they will gather, and never go away. While useful for collecting enormous amounts of conflicting data, designers will generally find good reason to regret the mistake once the game is launched on the market. Of the ten to fifteen thousand or so Grogs gathered, not one will be entirely satisfied with the result, unless presented as a quite temporary measure on the path to perfection. The CM series was initially based on Grog feedback. It has - probably therefore - attained the never before acquired status among Grognards of being the least inadequate PC wargame ever. This in spite of the BTS/BFC consistent refusal to obseve code c) above. As a token of... well I'm not sure, the designers allow them to dwell in here in great number, grumbling. Cheerio Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 "While useful for collecting enormous amounts of conflicting data..." Chuckle chuckle. "...unhealthy levels of interest in obscure detail" Chuckle chuckle chuckle. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 Before PC games, Grogs were the ones acurately painting lead figurines and carefully measuring the distances between them on a battlefield tabletop. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 Lovely post Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 Originally posted by GreenAsJade: Before PC games, Grogs were the ones acurately painting lead figurines and carefully measuring the distances between them on a battlefield tabletop. Alternately, they carefully scraped off the firepower numbers on their Panzerblitz counters and replaced them with the "corrected" figures. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macphail Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 lmfao 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 AIUI Napoleon's inference being that the people grumbling knew enough to grumble. If a snappy young Leftenant was giving wrong, or rather not 100% correct, orders the grognards knew enough to grumble about it. The hoarding of arcane knowledge like this term is central to a grogs being, therefore they take pleasure in it. If you keep your eyes open you can see several of them in their natural element here... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 Originally posted by Other Means: AIUI Napoleon's inference being that the people grumbling knew enough to grumble. If a snappy young Leftenant was giving wrong, or rather not 100% correct, orders the grognards knew enough to grumble about it. The hoarding of arcane knowledge like this term is central to a grogs being, therefore they take pleasure in it. If you keep your eyes open you can see several of them in their natural element here... Hoarding implies they keep it to themselves. A true grog loves to share...and share...and share....and share...and share some more... Where IS JasonC these days, anyway? I guess he can't scrape the FP values off his CMAK, though, can he Emrys? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoolaman Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 Originally posted by Dandelion: .......least inadequate PC wargame ever.........I enjoy your prose Dandelion. Many thanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiggDogg Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 This is an explanation of "grog" that I sent to some non-grog and grog friends to whom I send interesting news articles. Some of you may not know what a “Grog” is. Here is the/"an" explanation that is pretty close to being generally correct. During the Napoleonic wars, Napoleon (in addition to almost all European armies of the time) had a special chosen group of soldiers called a ‘Guard’. The Guards protected the respective nation’s leaders. The Guards of these nations were the best of the best line troops. These were tough dudes. At times, Napoleon’s Guards consisted up to 10,000 to 12,000 soldiers. Nappy’s Guards were divided into three sub-groups: the Young Guards, The Middle Guards, and the Old Guards. As the descriptors imply, generally, the youngest and least experienced Guards were in the Young Guards. The Middle Guards were generally older and more experienced. The older/oldest and most experienced Guards were in the Old Guards. Nappy’s Old Guard had seen it all, had experienced it all, were most respected, and had a special place in the army’s heart and in Nappy’s heart. Because of their elevated and respected status, relative to others in the army, they could more vocally and more frequently grumble, complain, and express their thoughts and opinions about circumstances and things in general and get away with it. Probably, the Old Guards were mostly correct. Anyway, because of the Old Guard’s continuous grumbling & complaining, they became known as the “Grumblers” or “Grognards”. In modern day board wargaming circles, in my experience, during the late 60s, but probably in the very early 1970s (I can't remember exactly when), in the wargaming publications like Strategy & Tactics, the term “Grognard” or “Grog” (for short) became to be applied to more experienced wargamers who had a tendency to grumble about all things wargaming. So there you go. You know what “Grog” means and the source of the term. Yes, that is too much information.Cheers, Richard [ December 13, 2004, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: PiggDogg ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Shaw Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 Originally posted by Michael Emrys: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GreenAsJade: Before PC games, Grogs were the ones acurately painting lead figurines and carefully measuring the distances between them on a battlefield tabletop. Alternately, they carefully scraped off the firepower numbers on their Panzerblitz counters and replaced them with the "corrected" figures. Michael </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nidan1 Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 What a bunch of "grog" grogs....sheesh. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Kruger Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 Originally posted by Joe Shaw: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Emrys: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GreenAsJade: Before PC games, Grogs were the ones acurately painting lead figurines and carefully measuring the distances between them on a battlefield tabletop. Alternately, they carefully scraped off the firepower numbers on their Panzerblitz counters and replaced them with the "corrected" figures. Michael </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 Contrasts are always useful: Here's the ultimate non-Grognard: I was watching a movie with a friend. The film characters were a Finnish soldier conscripted into the German SS, a Russian infantryman, and a Lapp peasant. This friend, an otherwise reasonably intelligent guy, did not have a CLUE when or where this was taking place! "When did Germany attack Russia?" Awh! You can only slap your forehead in disbelief! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Joch Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 Regarding Napoléon's "Old Guard", because most of them were grizzled veterans with many year's experience campaigning under Napoléon, they were quick and quite vocal in second guessing their officers and even Napoléon himself on every aspect of army life, including strategy, tactics, army organization, equipment, food, etc.,etc. Since they were fiercelly loyal to the Emperor and he depended on them as his "ultimate" reserve, he let them grumble to their heart's content. In other words, they thought they knew better than everyone else, even the great Napoléon, how the army should be run, which is probably the best definition of a modern day "Grog". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 Originally posted by MikeyD: Contrasts are always useful: Here's the ultimate non-Grognard: I was watching a movie with a friend. The film characters were a Finnish soldier conscripted into the German SS, a Russian infantryman, and a Lapp peasant. This friend, an otherwise reasonably intelligent guy, did not have a CLUE when or where this was taking place! "When did Germany attack Russia?" Awh! You can only slap your forehead in disbelief! Sit him down with a copy of Eisenstein's Alexander Nevsky some time. That ought to confuse the hell out of him. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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