What artillery is best for trenches?

[securityguard]

Spotters that is, not infantry guns.

It seems like four 75mm spotters are actually more effective than one 150mm spotter. Big shells just bounce around the trenches and occupants inside don't evem budge.

What's a good medium? My guess is 105mm or 81mm, but I'm sure someone here has done more testing.

[Other Means]

VT. It's worth the extra money as the airbursts remove the cover provided by the trenches.

I know what you mean about the dispersion of the larger shells. Hopefully in CMx2 you can order a shell density to stop the default dispersion. I can't think why it's in except to avoid wasting ammo on already dead units. I don't think larger guns are more inaccurate.

[flamingknives]

logically, 25pr VT would be pretty useful.

I always use DF

[Zveroboy]

I would think 105 mm is really the minimum against an entrenched enemy and you are probably wasting ammo/time by using 75 mm spotters in this situation (unless you are facing conscript or green troops).

Keep the small calibre like 81 mm and 75 mm for smoke, to shell enemy in woods or for when the enemy is trying to cross open ground.

You can also use them to keep the enemy suppressed after the big arty barrage is over, and your infantry is closing on his positions.

[stikkypixie]

What is VT?

[Elmar Bijlsma]

VT without little doubt. But the small stuff is very good too. It won't kill your men inside the trench. No, that be too easy. It'll break their morale with the sheer amount of shells exploding nearby (if you spend the same points on small stuff as on the big arty) and make them flee their trench with hardly a casualty. And then they die.

btw

VT is Variable Time fused shells, though that isn't actually accurate. They are basically proximity fuses (similar to Flak) that make the shell explode at a set height above the ground. Very good for dispersing shrapnel in an optimal fashion.

[rleete]

Variable Timed. A fuse designed to give airbursts, more effective for clearing trenches.

[flamingknives]

Actually, according to Mr. I Hogg, VT actually stems from the identifying code letters used whilst developing the fuse. The description Variable timed came about later as that fitted. As it was a suitable definition and also gave the impression that it was an improved mechanical fuse, it was retained.

[PiggDogg]

Securityguard,

The best arty for clearing trenches is lots of direct fire HE. Usually the best source of direct fire HE is tanks with at least 75 mm guns.

Guns less than 75 will have difficulty being effective. Also, don't use just one tank beating a trench. Use 2, 3, 4, 5, or more tanks to clear a trench. :eek:

Few things clear a small stretch of trench like 4, 6, or 8 T34s or PzIVs whacking the daylights out of a squad or two in a trench. :eek:

Don't be afraid to use area fire into the trench because those infantry in the trench will have a tendency to go an unspotted icon after a bit of whacking.

Cheers, Richard

[GreenAsJade]

I know Security said "not infantry guns" (IE no onboard), but I have to add that I had fun one time when I got three onboard mortars about 80m away from a trench, positioned _on the trench line_. Because on-board mortars lay their explosions in a line along the firing line, these three guys cleaned up that trench!

[Thomm]

Originally posted by Elmar Bijlsma:

VT is Variable Time fused shells, though that isn't actually accurate. They are basically proximity fuses (similar to Flak) that make the shell explode at a set height above the ground. Very good for dispersing shrapnel in an optimal fashion.

Is it possible that you refer to "modern" shells?

I doubt that in WW2 there were any kinds of proximity fuses around! I am sure that both FlaK and VT shells were set off by a mechanical timer!

Best regards,

Thomm

[Soddball]

British 3" mortars are pretty good.

[flamingknives]

Originally posted by Rollstoy:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Elmar Bijlsma:

VT is Variable Time fused shells, though that isn't actually accurate. They are basically proximity fuses (similar to Flak) that make the shell explode at a set height above the ground. Very good for dispersing shrapnel in an optimal fashion.

Is it possible that you refer to "modern" shells?

I doubt that in WW2 there were any kinds of proximity fuses around! I am sure that both FlaK and VT shells were set off by a mechanical timer!

Best regards,

Thomm </font>

[rleete]

The History channel had a pretty decent (but short) segment on this a couple of nights ago. Part of the artillery vs. rockets debate.

The original fuse version was the size of a large soup can, and by 1945 they had it down to less that 1/3 of that.

[MikeyD]

"VT" was a U.S. secret weapon first used during the Bulge battles to great (horrific for the Axis) effect. It isn't really a timed fuze - that's the old technology. It's actually a mini-radar in the fuze nose.

In Bosina in the 90s I recall some units had a special countermeasure device that sent out fake VT radar returns so any incoming airburst shells would think it was approaching the ground and pre-detonate well away from the troops.

Not much use to you if you're fighting 1943 battles.

[securityguard]

Is VT in the game? I haven't noticed any labeling between VT and normal artillery.

[flamingknives]

Yup, VT is in. You can tell the difference, as suitable arty modules have 'VT' in the description.

It's only available late war.

[GreenAsJade]

... and it rocks. My one 105 VT dude completely won a 3000pt battle for me just now. One minute of shelling any trench, and it seems to clear!

[ColumbusOHGamer]

You're all wrong.

When a human female communicates non-verbally with another human female, that's known as Vaginal Telepathy, aka VT. Only the females have this feature as the males are clueless.

[Bone_Vulture]

Columbus, if bad humor was a crime, you'd be a lifer.

[willbell]

The VT sounds like something I need to pay more attention to. Barring that I just want to throw in that my experience supports PiggDogg and Flammmmmingknives' position that 75mm DF is the most effective. Artillery is too scattered to be worth the effect. I also regularly target area because it is almost certain that your targets will move around or try to move out of LOS. I would be curious if the effect of a blast contained by the sides of the trench are modeled in CM, it sure feels like it.

Also, I can't say enough how much I appreciate it when the more experienced and knowledgeable players jump in on these forums. Thanks guys.

[YankeeDog]

As noted, VT is HIGHLY effective against troops in trenches.

The major problem with VT is that it's also VERY expensive -- IIRC the US 105mm VT spotter is something over 500 points @ Regular. I think this makes the US 105mm VT spotter the single most expensive unit in the game.

This is also why it's usually not a good idea to put trenches in trees -- treebursts basically make normal artillery function like VT.

In general, though, I agree with the assertion that DF HE is the most cost-effective weapon against units in trenches. As Soddball notes, on-board mortars, and especially the Brit 3" with it's large ammo load, are also pretty effective against units in trenches since they're much more accurate than their off-board cousins.

For me, the speediest way of dealing with an entrenched position is first a few shells of the biggest DF HE you can bring to bear -- ideally the 150-155mm stuff. Then, once the enemy in the trenches is at least Pinned from the HE fire, cease fire with the HE assets, and follow this up by Area fire from a couple of high ammo load MG units, either HMG team or vehicle mounts. Once the enemy is pinned from HE fire, the MG area fire is enough to keep them that way. You can then maneuver on the trench with impunity.

As noted, the 150mm-sized stuff is really ideal for this strategy -- it usually only takes a couple of rounds of this stuff to pin entrenched enemy. You can do the same thing with smaller HE, but the smaller you go, the more time it will take to panic the entrenched enemy, and therfore the more likely your opponent will have time to exectute a good counter strategy (such as mortar fire on your supporting gun(s), or AT fire on your supporting tank(s)). Once you get them to Panicked, though, a couple of MGs will keep them cowering just fine, and you can save your valuable HE for other targets.

The above strategy is also why it's often a good idea to put trenches on a fighting crest. Often, DF HE fired at fighting crest positions will fly long, or impact well short of the trench position. This means that, unless the attacker is lucky, it usually take a lot more time and HE to get enough good shots in close to the trench and make the enemy go heads down.

Cheers,

YD

[CMplayer]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

As noted, VT is HIGHLY effective against troops in trenches.

Anyone heard if trenches/foxholes with overhead cover will be in the new engine? Because they sure as hell were in the war.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

Guns as small as the Bofors 40mm AA gun had proximity fuses.

Do you have a source for that? I'd be interested if you do, because to this point, I hadn't heard of anything smaller than a 3" getting PFs, and those were very late in the war.

Or are you talking about post-war?

Michael

[flamingknives]

Only a vague recollection - something to do with combatting the V1s. Of course, now that I think about it , that might have been predictor fire control.