CMx2 bones a plenty (renamed)

[kgsan]

Originally posted by Bonxa:

Well one thing I just have to ask is if Full Movie Playback is on the must have list? I think it will add a whole new dimension to the game as has probably been discussed to death elsewhere.

This thread seems to answer a whole lot of questions so why not this one too?

I'd like to second this request. I realize that this feature may be disparaged as chrome, nonetheless I think its addition would be popular. It would just be awful fun to watch the battle unfold in all it glory after a hard fought game. In the event this feature is being considered would it be available for all game play options (i.e playback of solo, PBEM and networked games)?

[Salkin]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

..... The development efforts to iron out these problems to the satisfaction of most is simply too great. Plus, it doesn't do anything for those who want a more story driven campaign, and those are (we think) the vast bulk of our audience. So the choice is rather clear for us.

Quick Battles and premade scenarios will of course remain a part of CMx2, but the story driven campaign will likey be the primary way the majority of people play the game.

Steve

Story driven campaigns are ok and all but I'm not sure that's what the majority of these forum dream about. Most people here seem like the type who want consequenses from their battles that they then have to act and react on , so being led by the nose is probably not what most people here want (I could be wrong of course).

Anyway I have total understanding if a strategic layer could be a bit tough to program but don't skip on it because you think most people want a story driven linear campaign.

Just my 2 cents.

//Salkin

Thanks for all the replies Steve

[jim crowley]

At the risk of sounding stupid, what exactly is a "story" driven campaign?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by jim crowley:

At the risk of sounding stupid, what exactly is a "story" driven campaign?

You take on the role of an individual or specific unit, and the scenarios are generated as part of a larger story involving that person or unit which may or may not be effected by the outcome of the scenarios. The story is chrome in most cases, but provided context to the scenarios. Sort of like a campaign, but with a personal feel to it.

More commonly found in sci-fi or fantasy games. Sort of like the first Battletech game IIRC...

[Tarkus]

I can't wait to see what the maps and terrains will look like. Round edges or other shapes ? dynamic terrain and lightning effects ? Overlays ? Civilians wrecks & rumbles ? Can you tell us a little more about this Steve ? The first official release dealing with these topics was quite promising...

And what about the sounds ? anything new on this count ? Doppler effect, compression and such ? Like when you hear a rifle being fired a miles away, it's more like a low *thump* as opposed to the crisp *bang* when you are next to it, especially when there are obstacles in the way. Would it be possible to allow some sort of dynamic filtering/treatment relative to the position of the viewer/listener from the sound source ? Just wondering of course, but that would add a lot to the feeling of "being there".

Originally posted by Bonxa:

[...] Full Movie Playback [...]

One thing about this feature is that it could take the great art of AARs to new heights.

Thanks for all these infos Steve. Mighty encouraging I say.

Cheers

[Other Means]

Steve - any news on the biggie? What is your approach to The Borg?

[Stan Hope Park]

what exactly is a "story" driven campaign?

I think it means that you have one unit which you take through a series of battles. It may be reinforced between battles, and obviously it will suffer losses, but a discernable core will continue. See here.

The other type of campaign involves a larger map than that in the game. Units move around at an "operational" level until they come into contact, when conflict is resolved using Combat Mission. See here or here.

... but this second style of campaign relies on human gamesmasters rather than articial intelligence. You can't do it solo.

[Panzer76]

Originally posted by fytinghellfish:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Panzer76:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by fytinghellfish:

but I'm curious to know if you (BFC) don't have an interest in, say, modern combat

CMX2 first release will be modern combat. </font>

[Battlefront.com]

I guess some definitions are in order

On-the-fly means something that is generated completely from the game according to very generic player options. Quick Battles are done on-the-fly as opposed to scenarnios made using the Editor. The problem with on-the-fly stuff is that it is very, very difficult to predict how various options will interact. Anybody who has played a bunch of Quick Battles can tell you that While the system generally works very well, it has shortcomings.

Story driven campaign is a series of battles which are linked together by a common plot line. Each battle is like a chapter in the story. Although it is commonly used for sci-fi and fantasy games, it is also very common for military based ones as well. Especially first person shooters.

The campaign itself can take many different forms, but generally people think of them as either static or dynamic. Static means that when the player wins the current battle the next battle is predetermiend no matter what the player does. Usually the forces are also static so even if you win the battle with one guy left standing, the next battle has you with all fresh units. Dynamic means that the player's performance in the current battle has some effect on what battle comes next and/or the troops under his command.

There are many variations on static and dynamic types of campaigns. CMx2 will be of the dynamic variety.

The story is, in many ways, chrome. But it is the kinda chrome that gets people to feel like they are behind the wheel of something special instead of a generic looking plastic and sheet metal utility car. The story will matter, even to those who think it won't. On top of that the story will offers us the ability to craft something that is highly polished and works exactly as we expect it to instead of having something where people find themselves plopped down into a battle that doesn't make sense or isn't much fun.

While I agree that many people here might think that this campaign concept isn't for them, customer base wide it is probably a minority view even on this forum. People have been clamoring for "context" since CMBO came out. The campaign gives that context in a way that individual battles, especially Quick Battles, never can. Still, individual battles will certainly be a part of the game because they are cool in a different way and therefore replacable by a campaign of any type.

The kind of über campaign that some are dreaming of is just not something we feel we can do. At least not for CMx2's first couple of releases. We've got too many things piled up on our plates as it is. Since we feel these things are desired by nearly everybody, the choice is really easy to make. We can never put in everything that everybody wants

I'm shying away from answering all the other questions because I can't allow myself to get sucked into a general CMx2 discussion quite yet. When you see a new forum set up to discuss CMx2, then you'll see a more generalized discussion. Not sure when that will happen, but it won't be too much longer.

Steve

[Mace]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Dynamic means that the player's performance in the current battle has some effect on what battle comes next and/or the troops under his command.

There are many variations on static and dynamic types of campaigns. CMx2 will be of the dynamic variety.

Linked dynamic scenarios?!!!!

OOOOOOOoooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooh!!!

*gets all excited*

Just think of the possibilities.

Mace

[Yeknodathon]

Steve

Good to hear all the news about the CMx2 development.

As has been mentioned before, is BFC going to consider greater freedom to edit unit information in the Scenario Editor or allow the export, editing and import of game files to allow greater flexibility with third-party campaign systems?

Alex

[GreenAsJade]

Originally posted by kgsan:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bonxa:

Well one thing I just have to ask is if Full Movie Playback is on the must have list? I think it will add a whole new dimension to the game as has probably been discussed to death elsewhere.

This thread seems to answer a whole lot of questions so why not this one too?

I'd like to second this request. I realize that this feature may be disparaged as chrome, nonetheless I think its addition would be popular. It would just be awful fun to watch the battle unfold in all it glory after a hard fought game. In the event this feature is being considered would it be available for all game play options (i.e playback of solo, PBEM and networked games)? </font>

[Sergei]

Steve, would it be possible to have a dynamic campaign consisting of Operation type scenarios?

[Panzer76]

Huh? So CMx2 will be CMAK with finite number of fancy campaigns, infinite QBs and no scenarios at all?

I do take it the user can make scanrios? Can he also make the fancy campaigns?

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Panzer76:

Huh? So CMx2 will be CMAK with finite number of fancy campaigns, infinite QBs and no scenarios at all?

I think you've missed something... Steve said:

Quick Battles and premade scenarios will of course remain a part of CMx2

[Battlefront.com]

As for the full game movie... we HOPE that we can make it work, but we'll just have to see. Obviously since we wanted it in CMx1 we want it in CMx2.

CMx2 similar to CMAK? Well, if you consider a Lexus in the same ballpark as a Ferrari... I suppose so CMx2 will have Campaign, Scenario, and Quick Battle options. Operations as you guys know them from CMx1 are out completely.

I think the best way to visualize the new campaign system is to imagine playing CMAK with a guy who has designed a complete campaign made up of individual scenarios. The scenarios are already "in the can" before you start to play. When you finish one battle the campaign dude chooses which scenario to give you next (based on a plan of some sort), tweaks the forces a bit to reflect previous losses/reinforcements, adjusts some global parameters to track your progress, then sends you the stand alone scenario file complete with tweaks. This repeats until complete.

This is very roughly what CMx2's campaign system will do. Only difference is that we aren't shipping each game with a live person to cobble together individual scenarios. We think it's more cost effective (and legal!) to have some code do that sort of thing

Steve

[Bonxa]

Thanks Steve for the comments on the full movie playback. I will keep the good karma flowing and hope that you can make it work. If you make the movie saveable, not only will there be a scenario depot and a mod depot but also a movie depot. Wouldn't that be nice?

[Panzer76]

Re: Answers.

Cheers.

And thanks for the communication Steve, much appricated.

[stikkypixie]

VRRRROOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMM

[Salkin]

Didn't one of the close combat games have a type of operation where you were advancing or being pushed back to a new map depending on how well you performed in the previous map ?

Is it something along these lines Steve ?

And sorry for nagging , I just love a fun campaign game . And I can tell you this , I'm not really worried cause whatever you guys choose to do I suspect CMx2 will be an enjoyable experience.

//Salkin

[JPS]

Thanks Steve. The dynamic campaigns, at the level you described, are my personal wish number one to keep up the longevity of CM series. Indeed, in CMBO times I deviced short & simple rules to do them solo based on quick battles.

I am quite sure you have thought of this but still: current operations can be quite effective in describing e.g. "annihilation" type situations in fixed map. I hope your mention of "operations ... out completely" does not mean that a dynamic campaign can't continue in the same map, with roughly the same starting positions/areas.

Sidenote: for those familiar with the RoW IV scenario in which allies try to capture the bridge in Italy, think about the possibilities having this as a starting point for dynamic campaign! Oh, the suspense & consequences of ones actions would be most exciting!

Br,

Jukka-Pekka

[Sirocco]

Hmm. If we're going to have QB's, scenarios and only pre-defined campaigns that sounds like a step back. But I'll reserve judgment until we have more information.

[Other Means]

If state is going to be passed from one battle to the next then hopefully there will be a troop import/export tool. That will help a great deal with any community developed meta campaign.

[Tarkus]

Originally posted by Sirocco:

Hmm. If we're going to have QB's, scenarios and only pre-defined campaigns that sounds like a step back.

You mean no editor ? I doubt it, since

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

The only way to avoid [the generic feel] is to eliminate Quick Battles and the Editor, which I am sure you guys don't want

Now this:

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

We are looking into ways of allowing people to add customized skins for objects on a scenario by scenairo basis.

is quite a remarkable possibility. It would be a great way for scenario designer to customize their offerings.

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

[...] I can't allow myself to get sucked into a general CMx2 discussion quite yet. [...]

All right then, you gave us good stuff to ponder though.

But, ahem, * whistling innocently * what about the basics ? As it is now, it seems all so revolutionnary that I still wonder if the "we go", 60 secs turn phase, waypoint system and all these are still in. I'm curious as to what is on your "keeping this for sure" list, so to speak.

Guess that's the kind of stuff you'll be posting on the coming CMx2 gen board... Boy, can't wait to see that one poppin'.

Best

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Other Means:

Steve - any news on the biggie? What is your approach to The Borg?

Oh YES!

this is the single biggest factor and question mark for me too!!!

And what of the discussion around ideas from players that might be helpful in the new CMx2 engine....

please oh please

tell us more about how you plan to eliminate the borg spotting and introduce some form of relative spotting (WITH memory for units so the AI remembers what it has seen!!! Holy cow that sounds ground breaking and revolutionary for a consumer war game simulation in an of itself irrespective of full movie play back or all the other new (possible) features!!!)

thanks for the comments Steve!

-tom w