African Americans.

[Peter Cairns]

Have I missed domething or are all the americans in combat mission BO to AK white....

[junk2drive]

All the face bmps are shared amongst countries so there is no way to separate nationalities. And yes, all the faces are caucasianesque.

[Dandelion]

They are all white.

As I understand it African Americans were not found in infantry combat formations save one all-black division? Well, people more knowledgeable than me will come along here.

I'd like to hike with your question if you don't mind, adding one of my own to yours:

- If African Americans were called up just like all other Americans, by what law/order were they selected for non combat duty? I mean, was there a regulation on this, or just a systematic discrimination?

- Similarily, if a black man living in London (as a citizen) volounteered for service, say in 1940, would he have ended up in a regular UK unit? If not, was there a law regulating servicemen colour in the UK? I mean among UK citizens.

I am genuinely curious as to how this actually worked.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[Michael Dorosh]

I got a nice photo the other day of a black Canadian in the uniform of the Irish Regiment of Canada, kilt and all, dated 1943 or 1944. He was a sergeant, as well. The CW officially did not discriminate against visible minorities, if they were citizens, as long as they were not Japanese. At least not that I know of.

The US 761st Tank Battalion was also all-black (with white officers) and saw combat in NW Europe with the US Army. I believe small numbers of "coloreds" were used for infantry reinforcements in US units late in 1944(?) and into 1945, but perhaps still seperated into squads or platoons rather than directly integrated. Been a while since I read that though so may have the facts wrong.

[Peter Cairns]

As far as I know there was no segregation as such in the UK , but as pre war immigration was limited the coloured population was far lower than it is now. Their were Indian units which did serve and the likes of Sikhs, an I think some might have been deployed in North africa, But it's not really my field.

I suppose if they were segregated in the US, then the only way to do it would be as a sepereate unit or for someone to model it as a patch.

I remember seeing a documentary about Coloured tankers in 1944, and the interview with one of the vets about being taken in by a dutch family. The guy said not only were they greeted as liberators and treated like kings, but it was the first white persons house he'd ever been in, and he wasn't in another for nearly twenty years when he went home.

That can't be right given what they were fighting for and against.

Peter.

[Wicky]

In the battle for Hürtgen Forest and especially the Bulge there was such a shortage of replacements that a call for volunteers was made to coloured support forces to prop up the frontline infantry and they were integrated into front line forces. There was controversy back in US but it soon became established.

<a href="http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/usarmy/manpower.aspx" target="_blank">THE UNITED STATES ARMY IN WORLD WAR II

by Rich Anderson

 

Manpower, Replacements, and the Segregated Army

</a>

Probably the most famous Colored units were the 561st Tank Battalion, the 333rd Field Artillery Battalion, and the 969th Field Artillery Battalions. The 561st was assigned to Patton's Third Army over his strong objection (he believed them incapable of "thinking fast enough to fight in armor"). However, the intrepid gallantry of the Black tankers soon won him over. By the end of 1944 Patton declared "I have nothing but the best in my army. I don't care what color you are as long as you go up there and kill those Kraut son's-a-bitches." In 1978 the 761st was awarded a belated but well deserved Presidential Unit Citation. The 333rd was caught by the German onslaught in the Ardennes and was partly overrun defending its guns. The remnants of the battalion fought on, joining the 969th as the backbone of the defense of Bastogne.

Another use of African-American manpower was a result of the massive attrition that was suffered in the winter of 1944 in Europe. As the infantry replacement pool evaporated in the ETO, radical steps were taken. In January 1945 General Eisenhower took the then unprecedented step of allowing African-American soldiers to volunteer as combat infantry replacements. The response was overwhelming, soldiers accepted reductions in rank in exchange for the chance to fight. These men were assigned to hard-hit divisions where they soon made an impression. Eager to prove critics of African-American combat prowess wrong, these men made up for their lack of experience with a reckless bravery. Most of the replacements continued to serve in effectively segregated units however, most of the divisions formed them into separate platoons or companies that were attached to White units.

[Nidan1]

Back in the war days of the 40's America was still largely segregated, especially in the South. This policy unfortunately carried over into the American military.

The US Marine Corps was completely segregated and no black Americans were allowed to serve along side white Marines, it remained that way until the Korean War in 1950.

The US Army in Europe was mostly segregated, especially in the line infantry and armor units. Black soldiers were most notably part of the "Red Ball Express" driving the supplies up to the front line units in France.

One Black American received the Medal of Honor for heroism in WWII, but it was not given to him until 1993, six others were also awarded the medal posthumously during the same year.

2.5 million African Americans were drafted during WWII, although they served in segregated units, they still served with distinction, and deserve all the honor that they are entitled to.

[Dandelion]

Thanks for the input -

Allowing to volounteer? So before this point, there was an explicit prohibition on African Americans to serve in combat formations? As in, if a guy applied, he'd get the "sorry, according to section bla bla black americans are not allowed"? Forgive me for being so anal about it, I am just wondering how they actually did it, in practice. And how people were defined. Who was considered "colored"? Was there a defintion akin to the German Jew defintion? Tracing heritage, counting degrees?

Cheerio

Dandelion

[Michael Dorosh]

Dandelion, blacks in the US at that point in time were, in the deep South, prohibited from using "white" restrooms, had to sit in the back of public conveyances, and other indignities.

AFAIK they were judged primarily by physical appearance; only the Germans would count degrees of "blackness".

[Nidan1]

Originally posted by Dandelion:

Thanks for the input -

Allowing to volounteer? So before this point, there was an explicit prohibition on African Americans to serve in combat formations? As in, if a guy applied, he'd get the "sorry, according to section bla bla black americans are not allowed"? Forgive me for being so anal about it, I am just wondering how they actually did it, in practice. And how people were defined. Who was considered "colored"? Was there a defintion akin to the German Jew defintion? Tracing heritage, counting degrees?

Cheerio

Dandelion

It was pretty much skin color and racial characteristics....sounds pretty scary, but that is the way it was. When blacks were drafted or enlisted they were trained in, and assigned to all black units for the most part.

[Sequoia]

Originally posted by Peter Cairns:

I suppose if they were segregated in the US, then the only way to do it would be as a sepereate unit or for someone to model it as a patch.

.

If I understand correctly, if some one tried a patch, it would make the Germans black as well.

EDIT. No I'm not trying to be funny.

[ October 04, 2004, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: Sequoia ]

[Juju]

Sequoia, there'd be black Germans as well if the faces were to be modded.

Now, a (BFC) patch that would allow only Allied units to have (modded) colored faces is an altogether different thing. I wouldn't hold my breath, if I were you.

[Sequoia]

Juju, you're right, I was thinking Mod, not patch.

[junk2drive]

As posted before, I did Asian faces for CMBB that worked quite well. I was disappointed when I got CMAK and found the mod didn't work.

I can however have North vs South Koreans and China vs Japan

[Pzman]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Dandelion, blacks in the US at that point in time were, in the deep South, prohibited from using "white" restrooms, had to sit in the back of public conveyances, and other indignities.

AFAIK they were judged primarily by physical appearance; only the Germans would count degrees of "blackness".

Indeed, and often German POWs (state side anyway) got better treatment than African American men serving in the army, at least some Vets report that they felt that way.

[Grimly Fiendish]

Dandelion---The determining racial theory in the US has always been the one-drop rule, so there were no degrees to consider. Practically, this means that if a recruiter looked at you and thought you were black, heard you and thought you were black, knew a distant cousin of yours who was black, saw your address and thought you were black, then unless you were light-skinned and he decided to look the other way to meet his quota and you bluffed through it, that was it: transport battalion or medical unit at best. Same in the Pacific, where the blacks humped all the ammo and wounded and more than once had to take up a weapon to hold off the enemy, in addition to medical men's being singled out by Japanese snipers.

How this worked out on paper is an interesting question. No doubt draftees and volunteers were simply assigned to units based on their perceived "abilities" per the recruiter's recommendation or on the town they enlisted in, towns being segregated then. No one was turned down or forced away, except the sons of Japanese immigrants.

It would be cool to be able to do a 761st Tanker scenario. But most of the battles those guys were in were in the meatgrinder of the Gustav Line. Not too many exciting breakthroughs there. Just hard work.

[junk2drive]

Boots and Tracks Rune's Buffalo Soldiers Battle

[Philippe]

Note that the shared bmp's also prevent the use of Senegalese and Indians. (Though there was a small force of Indians in the German army stationed in Southwest France. These should have been sent off to join the Indian National Army, but by that point in the war the Germans were desparate for troops.)

[poppy]

In 1957 I was going through tech training in Memphis Tenn and one of the most infuriating confrontations that I have ever had was when on the way back to the navel base the bus driver over my objections ordered a black sailor to the back of the bus and me a white sailor to the front of the bus. I have never forgotten this experience.

[samurai man]

It would be nice and historically correct to have some black faces and units in CM - not to mention some King Tigers and a Follow the Leader Command.

[Lucho]

I am curious if there were any colored trroops in the Axis´ units, like Italian Colonial troops or volunters in late war German units.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Lucho:

I am curious if there were any colored trroops in the Axis´ units, like Italian Colonial troops or volunters in late war German units.

Yes, there were. There was a sizeable group of men from the Free India Legion or whatever it was called (who wore turbans with their standard issue Wehrmacht uniform) for just one example.

[Koenig]

Originally posted by Lucho:

I am curious if there were any colored trroops in the Axis´ units, like Italian Colonial troops or volunters in late war German units.

In East Africa the majority of the Italian Army was made up of colonial troops.

On 1st June 1940 there were 74,055 nationals and 181,895 colonials.

Talking about large units, there were 2 national divisions and 14 colonial divisions.

The absence of Italian colonial troops in CMAK is a major overlook for all those interested in the East African campaign.

Colonial troops were employed by Italy in North Africa too, but to a much lesser extent.

Best Regards

Koenig

[Dandelion]

Koenig

Formally, as of 1939 Libyans obtained full Italian citizenship, so the Libyan troops were Royal, not Colonial.

But of course, nothing but the name changed. Not much point in becoming a citizen in a state with no citizen rights, not even the vote

And yes, it would have certainly added colour - no pun intended - to have included these and other non-caucasian troops in the game.

Very interesting all this. The colour issue is probably much more extensive in the USA than I grasp. Identifying colour by mere names, adresses and way of speech sounds like separate nationalities. And I think I can see how this all worked, informally.

2.5 million sounds few tho. There must have been more African American men available for draft no?

And the UK issue has been only partially illuminated. What did they hear when appearing before the recruiter?

Cheerio

Dandelion

[Michael Dorosh]

The population of the US was 125 million in 1939, I think with a black population of 10%...2.5 million able bodied males from a population of 12 million men, women and children doesn't seem low (20 percent).

Canada, with a population of 8 million put 1 million men and women into uniform, or 12% of all men, women and children in the country.