African Americans.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

The short answer is, probably yes.

Unfortunately, getting your hands on that kind of stuff takes a bit of work an patience. Someday, I'll have time for projects like that. . .

IIRC, a couple of other works have been written about the 761st. I think one of them was called "Come out Fighting" or something like that. I'd like to get my hands on it.YD

I have a copy of that one in paperback. Was it one of the Ballantyne ones? I might consider getting rid of it if I can find it. If you promise to make some good scenarios...shoot me an email and remind me - if I can find it, I'll send it to you.

[Guest Mike]

When I was in the Territorials a couple of decades ago, a story was told of a CSM of the local APC squadron.

He was of chinese descent.

The unit was the NZ Scottish, and entitled to wear teh Black Watch Kilt.

CSM's had a further distinction in that they weer allowed to wear a grey beret because of eth regimetn's connection to the Scots Greys.

So there was this Chinese fellow barking out parade orders to a bunch fo New Zealanders while wearing a Scots tartan & beret......

[Michael Dorosh]

Berets are not worn with kilts though; Scottish headdress include the balmoral, the tam o'shanter, and the glengarry... :confused:

In 1990 when the Scottish Division beat retreat on Horse Guards, there were many of us from across the Commonwealth who were invited to participate on parade. I noticed that while we Canadians did stray considerably far form our Scottish cousins in matters of dress in the last 50 years, the NZ and Australians had strayed even further - in some ways. They still had the same rank titles and insignia that we all wore in WW II, but almost all the NZ and Australian troops kept no regimental items of dress from units they were technically affiliated with. For example, the Canadian Argylls and my own regiment wear the red and white diced glengarry of the Imperial Argylls - yet the NZ and Aus troops from regiments also affiliated with the Argylls did not.

The Canadians in this one are in dark sweaters (pipers in black glens, drummers in diced), the Imperial argylls in grey shirts. Note the Aus/NZ troops - one in the slouch hat and two in diced glens with black checkers on them.

Don't know why I bring it up - I'm not familiar with the grey beret worn by the Scots Greys - sounds unusual for a Scottish unit, but weren't they Armoured during WW II?

[Hun Hunter]

I was reading this article about the 761st and at the end I noticed this quote by Joe Wilson (author of 761st "Black Panther" Tank Battalion in World War II) ...During that time, the unit inflicted 130,000 casualties on the German army...

:eek:

One battalion inflicted 130,000 casualties!!! I saw him quoted other places claiming the same number so I don't think it's a typo. There was also a film (based on a book) that asserted the 761st liberated Dachau. I'll bet that's news to the 45th & 42nd Infantry Divisions. This bogus claim even made it to MSNBC . WHY do people try to rewrite history (rhetorical question folks ) The 761st earned their Presidential Unit Citation and served their country well, making up fake accomplishments for them just cheapens their actual ones.

On the general subject of Blacks in the US Army this is a great starting place. Some fairly detailed info on the various combat units including those in the CMAK area.

Greg

[Michael Dorosh]

On the subject of stats, actually, the "30" villages and towns mentioned earlier in the thread also seems low to me...

Actually, the book I referred to was Hit Hard, so I am in error. It's in paperback by David J. Williams. I probably don't need it anymore, so if this is near and dear to anyone's heart, let me know. Not a bad book; it is written by one of the white officers. Most memorable quote was on page 18 where he says "In fact, it was the first time I ever heard the epithet motherf***er." I am quite sure it wasn't part of "white" slang in the 1940s - Vietnam war movies would suggest that by the 1960s it was universal...so perhaps we know where they got it from?

[Hun Hunter]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

On the subject of stats, actually, the "30" villages and towns mentioned earlier in the thread also seems low to me...

Here is the exact quote from the 761st Presidential Unit Citation ... "were responsible for inflicting thousands of enemy casualties and for capturing, destroying, or aiding in the liberation of more than 30 major towns"

Not sure what a "major" town is defined as but it obviously omits any smaller villages and hamlets.

Greg

[BigMik1]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

The short answer is, probably yes.

Unfortunately, getting your hands on that kind of stuff takes a bit of work an patience. Someday, I'll have time for projects like that. . .

IIRC, a couple of other works have been written about the 761st. I think one of them was called "Come out Fighting" or something like that. I'd like to get my hands on it.

I don't know if any of these sources actually contained detailed enough info about terrain, OOB and tactical engagement to actually create an historical scenario as an official unit history certainly would.

You could definitely get enough stuff out of Brothers in Arms to do some decent "Semi-historical" scenarios. The battalion basically drove 76mm Shermans, with M5A1 lights in the recon company, and Sherman 105s in the Arty platoon, for its entire service. Brothers in Arms gives enough of an idea about the numbers of tanks involved in specific engagements, as well approximate composition of accompanying infantry, and basic description of enemy forces and terrain to do "inspired by historical events" type scenarios.

Cheers,

YD

It would be nice to see some CM scenarios on this unit. Try this website for some detail, it's called "Lest We Forget" at

http://www.coax.net/people/lwf/

It was created by an African-American that has collected alot of info from the web on African Americans in the military. Take a look in the WWII section.

BigMik1

[BigMik1]

Originally posted by Hun Hunter:

There was also a film (based on a book) that asserted the 761st liberated Dachau. I'll bet that's news to the 45th & 42nd Infantry Divisions. This bogus claim even made it to MSNBC . WHY do people try to rewrite history (rhetorical question folks )

Whoa there, that was probably one mistake. In many items I have read about this unit they do not make this claim about Dachau. So watch how you throw the bogus claim around . And the casualities they put on the Germans is true. They were in the field sooo long without a break they could do nothing else but fight and kill the enemy.

These men would not rewrite history to make themselves look good, they would like their REAL story to get out. Many have tried to put their story in the background for years. When most folks see the US soldiers in WWII, they see only white, when it was so many colors that contributed to the victory.

BigMik1

[ October 07, 2004, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: BigMik1 ]

[BigMik1]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

On the subject of stats, actually, the "30" villages and towns mentioned earlier in the thread also seems low to me...

Actually, the book I referred to was Hit Hard, so I am in error. It's in paperback by David J. Williams. I probably don't need it anymore, so if this is near and dear to anyone's heart, let me know. Not a bad book; it is written by one of the white officers. Most memorable quote was on page 18 where he says "In fact, it was the first time I ever heard the epithet motherf***er." I am quite sure it wasn't part of "white" slang in the 1940s - Vietnam war movies would suggest that by the 1960s it was universal...so perhaps we know where they got it from?

Hey if you don't want it I will take it. I would love to add it to my collection.

BigMik1

[SpitfireXI]

By the way Kareem Abdul-Jabbar will be at the National Book Festival tommorrow on the mall to talk about his book and sign it.

[Hun Hunter]

Originally posted by BigMik1:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hun Hunter:

There was also a film (based on a book) that asserted the 761st liberated Dachau. I'll bet that's news to the 45th & 42nd Infantry Divisions. This bogus claim even made it to MSNBC . WHY do people try to rewrite history (rhetorical question folks )

Whoa there, that was probably one mistake. In many items I have read about this unit they do not make this claim about Dachau. So watch how you throw the bogus claim around . And the casualities they put on the Germans is true. They were in the field sooo long without a break they could do nothing else but fight and kill the enemy.

These men would not rewrite history to make themselves look good, they would like their REAL story to get out. Many have tried to put their story in the background for years. When most folks see the US soldiers in WWII, they see only white, when it was so many colors that contributed to the victory.

BigMik1 </font>

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Hun Hunter:

The 130,000 number is bull. Are you seriously trying to tell me that this one battalion inflicted 1.6% of the military casualties that the Germans suffered in all of WW2 (that includes the Eastern front)?

Just speculating, but might it include the huge numbers of German soldiers surrendering at the end of the war? If they were in the right place at the right time, that might have boosted their score by tens of thousands.

Michael

[junk2drive]

I doubt any soldier high or low does the counting. Some PR guy tells someone a number. Reminds me of the Viet Nam body count controversy.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hun Hunter:

The 130,000 number is bull. Are you seriously trying to tell me that this one battalion inflicted 1.6% of the military casualties that the Germans suffered in all of WW2 (that includes the Eastern front)?

Just speculating, but might it include the huge numbers of German soldiers surrendering at the end of the war? If they were in the right place at the right time, that might have boosted their score by tens of thousands.

Michael </font>

[BigMik1]

Originally posted by Hun Hunter:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BigMik1:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hun Hunter:

There was also a film (based on a book) that asserted the 761st liberated Dachau. I'll bet that's news to the 45th & 42nd Infantry Divisions. This bogus claim even made it to MSNBC . WHY do people try to rewrite history (rhetorical question folks )

Whoa there, that was probably one mistake. In many items I have read about this unit they do not make this claim about Dachau. So watch how you throw the bogus claim around . And the casualities they put on the Germans is true. They were in the field sooo long without a break they could do nothing else but fight and kill the enemy.

These men would not rewrite history to make themselves look good, they would like their REAL story to get out. Many have tried to put their story in the background for years. When most folks see the US soldiers in WWII, they see only white, when it was so many colors that contributed to the victory.

BigMik1 </font>

[BigMik1]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hun Hunter:

The 130,000 number is bull. Are you seriously trying to tell me that this one battalion inflicted 1.6% of the military casualties that the Germans suffered in all of WW2 (that includes the Eastern front)?

Just speculating, but might it include the huge numbers of German soldiers surrendering at the end of the war? If they were in the right place at the right time, that might have boosted their score by tens of thousands.

Michael </font>

[Hun Hunter]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Now, ...we haven't established that 1.6% figure is accurate either...

I just used a figure of 8,100,000 total German casualties (Killed, Wounded, Missing) that came from what seemed to be a reputable web site (don't have it with me at work here). I'm sure that number is not 100% correct but it does get the point across that 1 Battalion did not inflict 130,000 casualties on the Germans. Feel free to use whatever overall casualty figure you want for the Germans and do the math yourself.

The Germans lost @ 250,000 casualties (Killed, Wounded, Prisoner) at Stalingrad? Is it believable that 1 Battalion of ANYBODY, Red, Green, Yellow, White, Black or whatever (except maybe Finns) inflicted 130,000 casualties on them?

Of course I am open to actual evidence that they did, I just believe that outlandish claims require proof.

Greg

[Michael Dorosh]

Even just the 91,000 prisoners taken at Stalingrad was indicative of a disaster - and would be a good size bag for a single battalion; the Russians had an entire Army there (an army being a group of corps, a corps being a group of divisions, a division being a group of regiments and a regiment being a group of battalions...)

I don't doubt the figure is high either, just yanking your chain a bit. Doing the math on 1% gave me 1,860,000 which seemed to low to be the total casualties on both fronts so you can see I'm no genius at math. My calculator tells me that your numbers jive as 1.6% of 8,100,000...give or take.

So yes, this seems like a very inflated claim.

These guys were brave enough to have plenty of glory from their actual accomplishments; always bothers me when already perfectly fine records are embellished and simply reverse the desired effect.

Also, rethinking the 30 towns and villages - that seems consistent with a single battalion; my own regiment probably liberated the same number now that I stop and think about it, perhaps even fewer. Very little urban combat for them until April 1945, and lots of fighting for hills, dikes, canals, forests and the like.

[BigMik1]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

So yes, this seems like a very inflated claim.

These guys were brave enough to have plenty of glory from their actual accomplishments; always bothers me when already perfectly fine records are embellished and simply reverse the desired effect.

But, they did a great job, even the great Patton himself at first didn't want them around till he needed them. The claim is high, but I don't think the vets did it, so give them a break. I have talked to many old African American vets of WWII and even one of the oldest living Buffalo Soldiers and they don't pump up their stories, they try their best to give it right and you can see it in their eyes, all that pain and many times glory. It bothers me they didn't get the Presidential Citation until Jimmy Carter was in office, now that's crazy.

And then several Black MOH winners didn't get their due justice till Bill Clinton gave them out. WOW.

But hey, it's the times we live in.

BigMik1

[Hun Hunter]

Originally posted by BigMik1:

Truth, haven't we African Americans heard that allot. My Lord. Well here we go. How do you know the number is untrue? It took years for the only ace in the Tuskgee Airman to be given the 5th kill to become the first black ace, because the air force back then didn't want a black ace. Truth huh...okay I have emailed the website that claims to be the "official" site of the 761st and asked about some info. When I get it back I will let you know what they say.

And this unit deserves books to be told about them because they had to fight on two fronts, the Germans on one side and American racism on the other. All the "colored" units had to deal with this "two" front war in WW2 and when they came home they still had to fight the racism of American still.

And many books document these guys did not get a break and had to fight longer than white units. Go check YOUR facts before you doubt.

BigMik1 [/QB]

BigMik1,

First off, no need to get testy, I respect the accomplishment of this unit (and other Black units). I also agree the story should be told. I also happen to think that the TRUE story is compelling and courageous enough. Using "facts" that are obviously wrong to embellish their great story tarnishes the whole story.

Yes, they were in action a serious amount of time. This basic chronology shows that. It also shows several periods of maintenance.

Can you PROVE they were in action longer than white units? I can't, but then again neither can I disprove it as I don't have the times in action for every US Battalion in the ETO. I do know that the 45th Infantry Division spent over 500 days in combat (not consecutive) so that at least makes me take the "longer than white units" claim with a raised eyebrow (Though I guess one could question if the 45th was all-white as they had a significant number of Native Americans in the Division).

Common sense tells me the 130,000 number is wrong. Furthermore, I see nothing in the official documents (so far, the Presidential Unit Citation mentions "thousands" which is a far cry from 130,000) that supports it, thus I await evidence that it is true, until then I assume it is an unfortunate embellishment to this excellent unit's record.

Greg

[BigMik1]

Hun Hunter,

Not getting testy, but find numbers and facts to let us know the "truth" before saying, "It's bogus!" and "it's wrong!". Well let us know what you came up with? We are all historians in some degree and would like to see new info that will tell us more about a situation in WW2. So find some facts and disprove the info you think is wrong before you squash it to death.

And can YOU prove they were not in the field that long?

I am trying to find facts.

BigMik1

[Hun Hunter]

Originally posted by BigMik1:

Hun Hunter,

Not getting testy, but find numbers and facts to let us know the "truth" before saying, "It's bogus!" and "it's wrong!". Well let us know what you came up with? We are all historians in some degree and would like to see new info that will tell us more about a situation in WW2. So find some facts and disprove the info you think is wrong before you squash it to death.

And can YOU prove they were not in the field that long?

I am trying to find facts.

BigMik1

Ok, the 130,000 number just fails the common sense test but if the only way to convince you is to get the total strength of every German unit in the 761st's areas of operation and add them up and see them fall short of 130,000 then I should start working Seriously, for the 761st to inflict those levels of casualties every member of the 761st (including the clerks & medics) would have to have killed, wound or capture at least 163 Germans EACH!!!! (note I assumed 800 members in the Battalion as that is the high number I found on web sites, TOE strength was in the mid-600's I believe). Does that not even move the needle on your BS guage?

As far as the "in the field", I accept the official chronology for now as it appears similiar to others. I don't think it is detailed enough to quantify each day of the 761st time in theater. I am perfectly content with the fact that they spent a significant amount of time on the line. I am not convinced that they spent more than all white units because I see no evidence presented, just a claim. Do I care to enough to do a quantitative study comparing WW2 US Army Tank Battalions in the ETO, not really though it would be mildly interesting.

Oops, I hear Mr. Slade pulling the whistle, quitting time, more later..

Greg

[BigMik1]

Well, till we have more facts, we can go on forever, so I will just wait and see. Glad to see a discussion on these brave souls.

And Hun Hunter, I hope I see you jump on other numbers and not just the numbers of "colored" units. Let's be fair to all and the truth come correct for all units.

BigMik1

[BigMik1]

Okay, I received a reply from the "official" website for the 761st and I asked what was the official casualty count for the unit, plus what concentration camps they liberated. The reply is below:

GREETINGS,

THE CASUALTIES INFLICTED UPON THE GERMAN ARMY BY THE 761ST IN COMBINED OPERATIONS WITH THE ATTACHED INFANTRY WAS APPROXIMATELY 130,000(REPORTED).

THE CONCENTRATION CAMP WAS GUNSKIRCHEN LAGER AND OTHER SMALL SUB CAMPS.

I replied back to who is the "reported"? But, it seems they combined the casualties caused by the unit with the operations they were in and the infantry units they were with. Interesting. I will try to see if they have the info of just the 761st by itself. Because they were in the Battle of the Bulge, for example, so I guess they threw that number in there. Need to find a clear number if I can.

BigMik1

[Michael Emrys]

That sounds pretty typical. The Army has somewhat precise numbers of total prisoners taken, but as far as which unit bagged them, that isn't nearly so clear. And as far as wounded and killed go, that is just so much educated guesswork. At the end of the war with the country being rapidly overrun, the Germans weren't always able to keep such good records of losses.

Michael