African Americans.

[Aco4bn187inf]

According to Liberators, a very informative and eye- opening book, the 761st normally operated while divided into smaller units attached to other formations, so it might be impossible to separate their German casualty statistics from those acheived by the other US units involved. Also, the book shows a Chaffee tank of the 761st, so apparently they were not strictly limited to Shermans and M5's.

By the way, it also shows Black marines being trained in 1943.

[Grimly Fiendish]

Somebody call Dan Rather! I hear he's an expert in military documentation.

The high number of casualties officially inflicted by the 761st is perhaps explained by the references to "assisting" in operations by necessarily larger units and by the manner in which the battalion was attached to numerous divisions, both facts clearly cited in this thread. Seems reasonable.

There was an antitank battalion at Bastogne that was deployed in support of various infantry elements. I'm sure its members would be incensed if their unit did not get credit for assisting in the siege as a whole and contributing to the total casualties inflicted on the Germans, especially as they helped stop cold an attempted breakthrough by a panzer battalion during the siege. Had they not done what they did (eliminating a third or more of the enemy armored force), perhaps other defensive positions on the perimeter---even those on the opposite side of the city---might have been compromised, and Bastogne might have fallen.

It's always a group effort, and official estimates of casualties inflicted by individual units will always sum to more than the actual number. This inflation should never be taken as self-inflation, unless a unit claims to have done something entirely on its own.

[Hun Hunter]

Originally posted by aco4bn187inf:

According to Liberators, a very informative and eye- opening book, the 761st normally operated while divided into smaller units attached to other formations, so it might be impossible to separate their German casualty statistics from those acheived by the other US units involved. Also, the book shows a Chaffee tank of the 761st, so apparently they were not strictly limited to Shermans and M5's.

By the way, it also shows Black marines being trained in 1943.

I wouldn't be surprised if the 761st got Chaffee's to replace their M5's in early 1945. I agree it may be impossible to ever actually sort out the casualties they inflicted from those of the units they were attached to (well, unless you wanted to spend a few years pouring through after action reports in the National Archives). It was the common practice in the ETO to attach an Independent Tank Battalion (such as the 761st) to an Infantry Division and then the tank would be spread amongst the division's sub units to provide armored support. It's very common to read of infantry companies in infantry divisions having a platoon of tanks in support. Since these divisions didn't have their own tanks they usually were coming from the attached tank battalions.

I don't have the book "The Liberators" but the snippet's I hav seen about it claim that the 761st liberated Buchenwald, can you verify that's what the book says? Also, I believe the movie named the Liberators claims they liberated Dachau. I don't know if that's from the book or "artistic" license.

I also came across some information about Black Marines in World War 2. Not a bunch of them but there were definitely a few units. That was news to me, thats for sure.

Greg

[Hun Hunter]

Originally posted by Dave Stockhoff:

...

It's always a group effort, and official estimates of casualties inflicted by individual units will always sum to more than the actual number. This inflation should never be taken as self-inflation, unless a unit claims to have done something entirely on its own.

Yes, it is always a group effort but when one unit makes claims to the denigration of others or says "we were the first, fastest, best" no matter the color, then evidence needs to be shown. If a unit claims to have spent more time in continuos combat in the ETO than any other US unit the burden of proof is on them, not on those that dispute it.

Greg

[junk2drive]

Grunts.net links to African Americans in WWII

[Aco4bn187inf]

Hun Hunter, in answer to your question, the book covers the 761st involvement in liberating both Dachau and Buchenwald.

Quoting Johnnie Stevens of the 761st from the book-

"We were only there [buchenwald] a little while, because as tankers we didn't stay anywhere long, we'd keep on moving. We shot up the place and chased the guards out of there. It was a sight I never want to see again, I'll tell you that."

and Leonard "Smitty" Smith of the 761st on Dachau-

"We didn't know what it was until the firing stopped, and all of a sudden, we see these prisoners come back out. Buck naked, looked like skeletons, just crawling"

Just one more quote from Liberators,a reference to a writing by Elie Wiesel-

"the most moving moment of my life was the day the Americans arrived. It was the morning of April 11. I will always remember with love a big black soldier. He was crying like a child-tears of all the pain in the world and all the rage. Everyone who was there that day will forever feel a sentiment of gratitude to the American soldiers who liberated us."

[Paco QNS]

Here are a couple of Leavenworth papers:

Combat Multipliers: African-American Soldiers in Four Wars, by Lt Col Krewasky A. Salter I (PDF)

Buffalo Soldiers at Fort Leavenworth in the 1930s and Early 1940s, by Major George Knapp

Regards,

[BigMik1]

I have another reply from the 761st "official" website. I was asking since the number is so high, how can they account for that. So below is the reply:

The number is rather high - I agree. There is a chart of damage to the enemy that you can find in COME OUT FIGHTING in the history section of the web site. Keep in mind that this tank battalion was a GHQ (separate unit).

During approximately six months of non stop duty, they fought in 4 major campaigns supporting 7 different infantry divisions (one Abn), in 6 different countries. Unlike an armored division that would cut through the

enemy lines and disrupt the enemy's activities in the rear, the GHQ tank battalions would stay and slug it out and mop up with the infantry.

Here is the website address: http://www.761st.com/

BigMik1

[BigMik1]

Originally posted by Hun Hunter:

Yes, it is always a group effort but when one unit makes claims to the denigration of others or says "we were the first, fastest, best" no matter the color, then evidence needs to be shown. If a unit claims to have spent more time in continuos combat in the ETO than any other US unit the burden of proof is on them, not on those that dispute it.

Greg [/QB]

Here is a little bit from the website of the 761st.

The strength of the 761st Tank Battalion was proven during 183 days of continual fighting (including action in the Battle of the Bulge) after the Black Panthers became the first African-American armored unit to enter combat.

BigMik1

[Hun Hunter]

Originally posted by BigMik1:

I have another reply from the 761st "official" website. I was asking since the number is so high, how can they account for that. So below is the reply:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The number is rather high - I agree. There is a chart of damage to the enemy that you can find in COME OUT FIGHTING in the history section of the web site. Keep in mind that this tank battalion was a GHQ (separate unit).

During approximately six months of non stop duty, they fought in 4 major campaigns supporting 7 different infantry divisions (one Abn), in 6 different countries. Unlike an armored division that would cut through the

enemy lines and disrupt the enemy's activities in the rear, the GHQ tank battalions would stay and slug it out and mop up with the infantry.

Here is the website address: http://www.761st.com/

BigMik1 </font>

[BigMik1]

Originally posted by Hun Hunter:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BigMik1:

I have another reply from the 761st "official" website. I was asking since the number is so high, how can they account for that. So below is the reply:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The number is rather high - I agree. There is a chart of damage to the enemy that you can find in COME OUT FIGHTING in the history section of the web site. Keep in mind that this tank battalion was a GHQ (separate unit).

During approximately six months of non stop duty, they fought in 4 major campaigns supporting 7 different infantry divisions (one Abn), in 6 different countries. Unlike an armored division that would cut through the

enemy lines and disrupt the enemy's activities in the rear, the GHQ tank battalions would stay and slug it out and mop up with the infantry.

Here is the website address: http://www.761st.com/

BigMik1 </font>