ononehand Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 The most unrealistic aspect of this game are the civilians or lack of them. The introduction of civilians would provide an interesting edge to wargaming. Afterall civilians can provide intelligence information. And considering the number of atrocities and war crimes commited during ww2, the game should allow you to recreate these atrocities. Including the option to save or even massacre civilians and captured soldiers and officers. This is warfare afterall. That would be very realistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rleete Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 SSPeiper I presume? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schrullenhaft Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 It was a conscious decision NOT to include civilians. While they have a place in modern warfare, it is beyond the scope of CM as a game to represent them. CM is a game about battalion-sized tactical combat engagments - not about every aspect and detail of warfare that occurred. On top of this - modelling civilians in a combat area just serves to usually have them massacred - not something you really want to include in a game which could experience censorship in some countries for such content. [ January 31, 2003, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: Schrullenhaft ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 Precisely! One must content oneself with the high ground of morality by slaughtering soldiers and not civilians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ononehand Posted February 1, 2003 Author Share Posted February 1, 2003 The PC version of conflict desert storm, although slightly childish it has to be said, is selling extremely well. Its very controversial at the moment which you know only serves to increase sales. The most controversial aspect of desert storm is not that it may upset the arabs, but that there are civilians in the game and you can massacre them if you choose to. So come on battlefront, lets have more controversy, more blood and limbs, more civilians and the option to massacre both civilians and captured enemy soldiers according to real history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 Originally posted by ononehand: The most unrealistic aspect of this game are the civilians or lack of them. Not really. Civilians had the uncanny nack to make themselves scarce during a battle. It's called self-preservation. Hence there are very few battles where civilians were involved. Mace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schrullenhaft Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 Massacring of combatants is somewhat acceptable for most games (the competitive nature of play). However the massacring of non-combatants is problematic. BFC/BTS has a significant amount of sales in countries where censorship & sales restrictions could be applied to software titles that are deemed offensive. With the historical bent that CM has, representing such atrocities could subject the game to further scrutiny that 'fantasy' titles wouldn't receive. Besides BFC/BTS probably doesn't want to appeal to an audience solely on the basis of 'social controversy' (compared to 'grog controversy'). If that were the case we would have had exploding heads and bloody gore all over the screen by now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Becket Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 (edited because I decided there was little point to making this post) [ January 31, 2003, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: Becket ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 I thought this same fellow just said that the lack of blood and guts was the most unrealistic part of the game... Wish folks would make up their minds! Combat Mission IV: No Gun Ri to My Lai; see it here next year, too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Eyes Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaSCa Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 Although everyone here is being very nice I would still like to say...Please don't feed the trolls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnifeForkSpoon Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 Sheeesh. You "annointed ones" are extra smarmy tonight. Lay off a wee bit. You were all newbies once, yourself. (Well, MOST of you were.) KFS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.E.B Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 There are no civillians because this game is a battalion level combat simulator. Any civilian caught in the middle of a battle is going to flee or take shelter. Therefore any civilian deaths are likely to be accidental and unobserved. Of course it could be argued that Partisan units actually are civilians, as both the Germans and the Russians treated partisans as armed non-combatants whose treatment was not subject to the rules of war. As for the deliberate killing of civilians, why would anyone want to simulate that. Were the German "Special Kommandos" or the NKVD killers heroes! :confused: It must be remembered that there are still many people living around the world today who suffered terribly as civilians in WWII - whether it was the populations of Warsaw, London, Nanking, Leningrad, Stalingrad, Hamburg, Berlin, Dresden or Tokyo. Millions of defenseless men, women and children were butchered in the name of racial or ideological supremacy, or were starved or worked to death by their occupiers. Lets not insult them by turning their suffering into a game! :mad: Regards A.E.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laxx Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 ononehand, pls post your questions in one thread and not seperate threads. Your question on Civilians and Blood and Guts are Related, the answers are the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrewolf Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 will the civilian need an AI or will they react more realistically without it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 I guess the question should be, were is the 'workers militia'? Lot's of civilians were recruited and used as combat troops in defense. Partisans could be used as 'militia', but AFAIK they are not always available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priest Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 So lets see, I have seen this before. Okay so first half of us jump on the moron (I was nice in the last thread no need here). The other half make jokes (funny ones at that) and there is the one person who tries to answer and another who begs off the dogs from attacks the moron mentioned above. (and yes I know 1/2 plus 1/2 plus 2 equals more than a whole but blah blah) Then the sun rises, the birds sing, and a very grungy MaddMatt sleepily moves the mouse to awaken his machine. He is less than one coffee in and in a foul mood (which is similiar but worse than his normal mood) and while quietly playing semi-diplomat he tells this guy to knock it off all the while checking for clues as to see if this is a repeat offender. If it is he triumphantly announces it and we all laugh at whoever it is this time once again for old times sake and wonder what in the hell is wrong with the moron who bothers to do this. If he is not a repeat offender we give the guy a chance, most likely he fails and is banned by Monday by which time he mentions something about the inclusion of atrocities and something racist just to complete the circle. Even if this moron manages to straighten up then they will probably be gone in a week or two whenver the next W@rCr@ft 3 expansion or whatever comes out. So until then this little idiot gets a really pathetic thing to enjoy while leading a ranting circle jerk religiously around his PC and/or MAC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolloff Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 During a shocking encounter with my own visage in the mirror this morning I developed a certain suspicion where this might be coming from. So if this is an attempt at investigative journalism I´d recommend an approach with does not insult the intelligence of 99,99% of the forum visitors. If the question which is at the core of all of this is "why does a realistic simulation of WW2 combat omit the realities of war, e.g. blood, guts, severed limbs etc. etc." or "where´s the morale..." I´d suggest you rephrase your posting over at the General Forum. Ontheotherhand if you really need more guts I´d suggest you head over to Rotten and start fondling the lower regions of your body. I´ve also heard that shooting yourself while watching the action phase improves the realism of the simulation ten-fold. Newbies start with an air-gun. Cheers! Nolloff [ February 01, 2003, 04:38 AM: Message edited by: Nolloff ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 I´ve also heard that shooting yourself while watching the action phase improves the realism of the simulation ten-fold. Newbies start with an air-gun Lol!!! Or if you want to kill civilians, why not simply join the Bin Laden fanclub? They are running out of members anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 Originally posted by Nolloff: During a shocking encounter with my own visage in the mirror this morning I developed a certain suspicion where this might be coming from. So if this is an attempt at investigative journalism I´d recommend an approach with does not insult the intelligence of 99,99% of the forum visitors. So we will get a 3rd thread in which we are asked whether we are members of the Junge Union? :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ales Dvorak Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 Originally posted by ononehand: The most controversial aspect of desert storm is not that it may upset the arabs, but that there are civilians in the game and you can massacre them if you choose to. Oh, how convenient. I think the most unrealistic aspect of this game are the animals or lack of them. Imagine romantic small village with white rabbits all over the place. ---- Horse races? Anybody....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolloff Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 Originally posted by Andreas: So we will get a 3rd thread in which we are asked whether we are members of the Junge Union? :confused: If yes I hope Seanachai and his army of cockroaches will come forward and show their stuff. But actually I´m more afraid of Sunday evening when I´ll have to endure repulsive Roland´s wet lips commenting on a major victory. War is hell ... Cheers! Nolloff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shipmonkey Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 Or we could ask why doesn't the game include "Rape the German Civilians" mode for the Russians or the "Roundup the Jews" mode for the Germans? Certain things that happened during the war had nothing to do with the average battalion level firefight, and have no place in the game. To allow players to commit those atrocities, even in simulation, is to trivialize the real suffering those events caused. On the other hand the complete lack of sheep and cows is a total disappointment. I can suspend only so much disbelief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ales Dvorak Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=002139#000009 [ February 01, 2003, 07:10 AM: Message edited by: Ales Dvorak ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 Personally and just for added realism, I've always enjoyed a rousing evening of role-play in "Gestapo Interrogations of the Minsk Lolitas", with the girlfriend after a match of CMBB. Stylized after the operations scenarios, we've completed the first part "Dirty Lil Babushka", and are now into part two "Whoshadadski". Ofcourse, there are some off-monitor accessories necessary that were not included with the game. And while we try and keep it historically accurate I've never been able to veryify the availability of small sized batteries during the 1940's, never-the-less it is one of the best and most rewarding ways to add extra enjoyment to a fun evening with CMBB. [ February 01, 2003, 07:59 AM: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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