ammotrucks???

[MAUS_TD]

Sorry i bring up this topic,

i've looked up this topic but couldnt find anything saying about my ammotrucks. Why the heck are they in the game? :mad:

You cant resupply anything with it why name it ammotruck?(some scenarios have more then 10 supply trucks some only with ammo) :confused:

And i hope that this will change in cmak.

Why is it so difficult to let those trucks stand near a gun or something else wait two turns and everything in about 10 meters will get ammo till its full.

[billcarey]

Trucks carrying ammunition actually are in the game. You just can't see them. In between battles of an operations (some of) your units are resupplied with ammo. There're your ammo trucks.

Resupplying units while engaged in a tactical firefight was by and large beyond the scope of action in actual tactical World War Two combat. (Or so this board has led me to believe.)

Even if such trucks were added to the game, I'm dubious of how useful they would be. Presumably if a gun (or mortar or heavy weapon) runs out of ammo, it's because it's been shooting at things right and left, willy nilly. Eventually some of them will shoot back. I can only imagine what the life expectancy of a truck filled with ammunition would be when under fire.

- b.

[securityguard]

edit: read what hes asking, doh

I guess they're in for cheapo transport

[ June 02, 2003, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: securityguard ]

[Soddball]

Originally posted by MAUS_TD:

Sorry i bring up this topic,

i've looked up this topic but couldnt find anything saying about my ammotrucks. Why the heck are they in the game? :mad:

You cant resupply anything with it why name it ammotruck?(some scenarios have more then 10 supply trucks some only with ammo) :confused:

And i hope that this will change in cmak.

Why is it so difficult to let those trucks stand near a gun or something else wait two turns and everything in about 10 meters will get ammo till its full.

The trucks are for moving stuff around - soldiers, towed guns - not for carrying ammo. Ammo resupply during a battle is not modelled. Ammo resupply during an operation is modelled, but you don't see it take place.

[MikeyD]

Hmmm, I never heard of the resupply between operation battles refered to as 'ammo trucks' before, but I guess it could. And for those who want horse transport yoiu could imagine between battles horses galloping onto the field to restock the troops too!

Resupply under fire may have been done, but I doubt many lorry drivers were keen to rush onto the battlefield within the first hour of an aggressive bloody firefight (the length of a normal CM scenario). Now if CM battle normally stretched on for 3+ hours I could see a need to attempt resupply, or at least bring up relief forces to take up the fight while your spent troops are withdrawn.

[MAUS_TD]

thnx sodball,

but i still dont know why they its saying that the truck is carrying ammo in a battle.

I know now that in a scenario i have to have my ammo trucks in one piece or the next battle i have no ammo.

[Sergei]

So you're talking about a scenario objective. Well, that's different. The designer just has given you an explanation for why you need to protect/escort some vehicles. But there aren't any particular "ammo trucks" in the game, just trucks.

[billcarey]

I think that the confusion may be that the game shows an ammo field for every vehicle - for tanks it would haev the HE and AP and C and whatnot. For vehicles that don't have any ammo (or just machineguns) this field is blank, meaning they don't have any ammunition because they don't have any main weapons.

So, the trucks aren't carrying ammo, much the opposite: they don't have any ammo.

- b.

[flamingknives]

Actually, it would be nice to see ammo resupply under fire, as this is described as occuring, at least in one section of Operation Supercharge.

Required some serious guts on the part of the truck drivers though.

I think that this was one of the reasons for the Bren gun carrier.

I suppose that this could be modelled in an op by setting the supply to low to represent the difficulties in getting the ammo up to the line, but then all your forces would be affected, not just the ones on the firing line.

[MikeyD]

Mabe something for them to consider for CMAK? Imagine, if you allot trucks-only as reinforcements then if you can get a truck up to your 88 gun position the gun will magically get bombed-up (restocked). Hmmm... sounds a bit too much like collecting 'health crystals' in shooter games, though.

[shrek]

One feature I liked in the "Close Combat" series was the ability of squads to pick up weapons and ammo from their fallen comrades and even from enemy units. It would be nice to see something like that in CMAK.

[Moon]

Shrek - scrounging ammo from the battlefield is abstracted in CM, hence small arms units never run out of ammo, they just get "low". Since CM does not represent single men but squads, the abstraction is genuine.

Martin

[Soddball]

Originally posted by shrek:

One feature I liked in the "Close Combat" series was the ability of squads to pick up weapons and ammo from their fallen comrades and even from enemy units. It would be nice to see something like that in CMAK.

You have this feature in CM:BB already. watch your squads and you'll see that they pick up weapons from their fallen comrades and from enemy infantry. See the manual for details on this.

[flamingknives]

That or assign towed guns higher ammo if the tractor is nearby, plus make them a bit faster as they don't have to lug the ammo about so much.

[SgtMuhammed]

The problem with the concept of tactical re-supply is that it makes people think that it is during tactical combat. Except for very rare instances it isn't. Supply units waited for lulls in the action to rush supplies forward. Sometimes they were caught in the front lines because of sudden flare ups but combat re-supply wasn't common practice for anyone.

In defensive positions troops would often overstock on ammo but this would be lost if they move. Troops on the attack would have to hope that they could secure the area enough for supply to reach them.

My point is that making an option of something that was only rarely ever done would lead to totally unrealistic use of that option. I can see every attacking formation being closely followed by supply convoys. The potential for abuse far outweighs the possible benefits.

[Stoffel]

In Tacops we have logistic packs.

these can be loaded on trucks and choppers and can be setup anywhere on the battlefield.

Troops can go back to resupply or the supplies will be brought forward.

It should not be that hard to implement in the game I guess.

Specially for long big turn battles it can be very handy.

[Monty's Double]

But the point is that an average 40 turn game represents the white heat of combat, and resupply (from central depots, as opposed to sharing between men in a platoon, which is abstracted)was very rarely done at that time. Trucks are in the game mainly because they are an easy add in code terms. In QB's you can use them as transport at a push, but they are usually a handicap. In scenarios they are very useful to add as resources to guard, as they give away lots of points when destroyed, especially if the crew are killed. There's a cool scenario with a German column that has to get across the board against Russian Partisans (who have light mortars and AT rifles). Very tough to get through without exposing the vulnerable trucks, especially if you don't clear out a route properly - close range small arms fire can be devastating.

[MikeyD]

I've been trying to think of a way to make CMAK stand out from CMBB. Maybe huge maps, VERY extended scenario lengths, and the ability for roaming tanks and troops to stop in at designated ammo dumps to restock might be the key. But I can imagine it turning really gamey if it's done wrong. And by really gamey I mean REALLY REALLY gamey!

[flamingknives]

You do get lulls in battles as CMBB stands at the moment. In a 2000 pt QB on a huge map I keep wishing for someone to come up and hand out ammo to the units that have frittered it away at long range or in a couple of recon skirmishes.

Bear in mind however, that said trucks will be softskins, not necessarily carry all the gear you need and cost a great deal of points. Losing them would not be good, and this should limit gamey abuses.

Perhaps something for CMX2, along with Centurions, Conquerors, M60s, M48s... (sorry, went to Bovington Camp last weekend. Much tanks, and the cold war ones are cool.)

[Baron von Beergut]

Originally posted by Soddball:

[/qb]

You have this feature in CM:BB already. watch your squads and you'll see that they pick up weapons from their fallen comrades and from enemy infantry. See the manual for details on this. [/QB]

[Michael Emrys]

Trucks were almost NEVER driven onto a live battlefield where they could be observed by the enemy...unless you had some particularly annoying drivers you wanted offed. The reason being that they would immediately become magnets for anybody with any kind of gun. A truck loaded with fuel or explosives makes such a satisfying bang when hit...

Instead, they pulled up at some designated point behind the lines and out of sight where they were offloaded. Then selected members of each squad or crew went back and picked up all they could carry and brought it forward, usually at night. In some armies some men, usually hired locally, were designated bearers and their chief job was to carry stuff for the guys doing the fighting.

Michael

[BulletRat]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

I've been trying to think of a way to make CMAK stand out from CMBB. Maybe huge maps, VERY extended scenario lengths, and the ability for roaming tanks and troops to stop in at designated ammo dumps to restock might be the key. But I can imagine it turning really gamey if it's done wrong. And by really gamey I mean REALLY REALLY gamey!

I'd rather see it go the other way, i.e. more emphasis on the small battles where one can control a squad to the man (eg. Commandos), I'm sure BTS won't make it in this fashion though, so I'll have to hunt around for another game of that nature.

[coe]

perhaps like the supply between battles in a operation you can set a resupply level for during combat? None (like what is done now)

or some:

That way squads get a low refreshing rate, perhaps

if they haven't been fired on for a few turns, the rate bumps up a bit momentarily...or if they are in their starting position (it represents ammunition bearers running forward or somethign like that).

what would be really cool actually (but probably impractical due to computation time) is to track individual weapon groups: within a squad...thus for instance you actually do save ammo for close in if you have smgs and use only rifles at long distance.

[flamingknives]

what would be really cool actually (but probably impractical due to computation time) is to track individual weapon groups: within a squad...thus for instance you actually do save ammo for close in if you have smgs and use only rifles at long distance.

More than cool, I think this would be necessary in future versions, as the abstraction doesn't really work. Rifles and MGs have a common ammo type, but you can't exactly load belt into a rifle or clips into an MG. The scrabbling to refill from a different ammo source really falls under the 'low' ammo situation (an MG would fire off all of a riflemans ammo issue in about 30 seconds) SMGs, on the other hand, are completely incompatible, ammo wise, so why should long range fire eat away at your major source of close range fire when it isn't being used?

The 'recharge rate' is a nice abstraction, BTW, especially if it can be affected by position (i.e cut off units)

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

[snips] More than cool, I think this would be necessary in future versions, as the abstraction doesn't really work. Rifles and MGs have a common ammo type, but you can't exactly load belt into a rifle or clips into an MG. The scrabbling to refill from a different ammo source really falls under the 'low' ammo situation (an MG would fire off all of a riflemans ammo issue in about 30 seconds) SMGs, on the other hand, are completely incompatible, ammo wise, so why should long range fire eat away at your major source of close range fire when it isn't being used?

Ah, more arguments for modelling down to individual man level!

One of the things to be borne in mind is that ammo carried in a section or platoon is not always immediately available for use; it may be in bandoleers or boxes rather than mags. My father did his national service with a BSM who recalls with some displeasure having to prepare for close defence of the battery position with Lewis guns, but having just received most of their .303 ammunition in Bren mags.

While I wouldn't expect to see trucks pottering around the map to replen people in CM, your point about Bren carriers being used for this is a good one.

As to lugging ammo on foot, one of the things that some switched-on platoons did when I was in the TA was to keep a large pack full of ammo at platoon HQ. When the lead section made contact, someone from platoon HQ would take this forward to them, as they would now be the "fire section" responsible for winning the firefight prior to the rest of the platoon assaulting. Obviously some smart young platoon commander didn't want the fire section running out of ammo just as he was leading the assault group over the last hundred metres.

All the best,

John.