Post Your Citadel Scores here...

[TigerChow]

OK, I'll start it off - I started out miserably, losing (3) of my MkIII's right off the bat. But I ended up with 65-35 tactical victory.

Also, I scored a Major victory on the Tutorial, but I didn't read the directions - I didn't do the human wave thing, and instead "assaulted" my guys across the open ground in front.

TigerChow

[Agua]

Citadel Schwerpunkt - Played as Russian with +3 experience bonus (no force augmentation) given to Germans, 78 - 22 Major Victory. One of my KV's took out three PzIIIs and two PzIVs. That was my third try though; first two were a draw and minor victory.

Tutorial - Played as German with +3 experience and 25% force augmentation given to Russians - 99 - 1 Total Victory, first try.

[ September 03, 2002, 12:20 AM: Message edited by: Agua ]

[Treeburst155]

Citadel Schwerpunkt-played three times as Russians, NO added German bonuses above what the designer already gives (200 pts). First two games were draws (50-50 and 46 AI-54 me). The third game I won 88-12. No surviving German vehicles, all flags in my possession. It's a fun scenario against the AI.

Treeburst155 out.

[ September 03, 2002, 12:24 AM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

[Cribtop Gamer]

I was very pleased to get a total victory (94-6) as the Germans on my first try.

Reading the terrain so that I only engaged one ATG unit at any one time was the first key.

The second key was using the covered arc command as I advanced to: 1) assign sectors to tanks for overwatch and 2) prevent turning to engage broken crap when I knew the real trouble was dead ahead. The Covered arc command is a truly superior addition and I can't wait to develop new tactics with it.

In fact, I only lost one PZ III to enemy fire, and that was because I forgot to give it a covered arc that turn. Sigh.

I was feeling mighty good since I beat the tutorial as the Sovs 95-5 for another total victory.

Then I started Yelnia Stare as the Sovs and got smeared on turn 1. Brought me back down to Earth, but I'll try a new setup and do better!

[Pvt. Ryan]

In my last go as the Soviets I knocked out all the German tanks. I finally learned how to use those Soviet tanks.

[Gyrene]

Citadel - Draw as the Russians (All games played with default settings)

Tutorial - Total Victory as the Russians on the first try (94 to 6 or something like that)

Tutorial - 84 to 16 victory as the Germans after 3 tries.

Citadel will be a tough one to beat as the Russians

Gyrene

[ September 03, 2002, 12:50 AM: Message edited by: Gyrene ]

[Gyrene]

Double post

[ September 03, 2002, 12:49 AM: Message edited by: Gyrene ]

[vondeath]

I had over 90% as German on the first try on Citadel, Total victory. Lost 2 PzIVs and one immobilized with full realism.... Lost two PIIIs and one immobilized. The 2nd KV didn't stand a chance once the west PIII platoon got on their flank at about 200m. The first one went down early to the PzIVs coming up the gut. The biggest problem the first try was losing a PzIV and a PzIII to the AT teams in the bushes and getting a couple of tanks tracked by the 45mm AT guns. I'm trying for no losses on that scenario.

The Yelnia Stare <sp> is tough as the Germans. I finally won after 3 tries and had to settle for a major victory. My AT guns had run out of ammo and 2 of my 3 platoons were on "LOW" so I had them hiding to wait for the assault which never came because the game ended after 28 turns and most of the Russian infantry was on the run by then. There was one T-34 in operating condition but it was easily sent into "panic" mode by hitting it with HE from the AT guns(It had previously taken casualties from AP rounds). There was one T-34 immobilized at the start positions, I still have no idea who or what got it... The 75 IG tracked it, maybe?

Like CMBO, I still have to find a decent use for infantry AT teams... I could never get a decent shot at a tank with a Panzerchreck without being taken under fire and eliminated, the same happened with my Tank Hunter teams.. I've tried sneaking, run and hide... They never seem to come close and when they do they seem to find me before I can get a decent shot.

Taking suggestions on infantry AT tips.

[ September 03, 2002, 01:35 AM: Message edited by: vondeath ]

[Redwolf]

89:11 as the Russians, after getting a draw first time.

As the Germans I got wxed in my very first CMBB play against a human (no AI play before). When playing the AI I ran out of time since I had no clue how fast the various new command actually move. Until then it was a safe ride.

The cover arc command is, well, can't really describe it. How could we ever live without it? Tank combat is a joke without it.

The only problem I have with it is that the tanks do not engage targets outside the arc, not even with the hull MG. I would prefer a command which specifies where the turret is facing while no enemy is in sight, but allows engaging any target once one is there. The hull MG should be indipendent anyway.

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

1st game:

82 - 18 I was Axis vs the AI.

2nd game:

82 - 18 I was once again Axis.

3rd game:

(In progress) I have given the Allies 100% troop bonus. The computer has lost three KVs so far and I lost my toon command tank for the PZ IVs.

[Pvt. Ryan]

I had a KV fire at a PIV that was outside of the arc. I think it engaged because it had been spotted and the PIV was preparing to take a shot.

[86smopuim]

Originally posted by Gyrene:

Citadel - Draw as the Russians (All games played with default settings)

Tutorial - Total Victory as the Russians on the first try (94 to 6 or something like that)

Tutorial - 84 to 16 victory as the Germans after 3 tries.

Citadel will be a tough one to beat as the Russians

Gyrene

as human yes being russian would be tough. but against AI, I lost 4 guns, 2 tanks. It lost everything.

[James Crowley]

Without meaning to cause any offence, the only relevant "score" IMHO, is that produced on the first attempt.

In real life you don't get to "go again", with full knowledge of the enemy units and positions.

Thats not to say re-runs aren't useful for training purposes and "what-ifs" but, in my book, they count for buggar-all as far as "scores" go.

The "I've cracked the scenario and can score 100% after ten attempts; aren't I clever" syndrome is about as far removed from what the CM experience is all about as you can get.

Sorry, just my opinion.

[Sitting Duck]

Total Victory as Axis first time through.

Three tanks lost, 1 Immobile.

AT guns are more difficult to spot in CMBB than in CMBO. This allows them to get off a few more shots before they can be targeted. Seems more historically accurate, IMHO.

Nothing more nerve-racking for for me than getting a ricochet (or 3 or 4) from an AT gun that you cannot see. Much better than in CMBO!!!

[kunstler]

I got something like 95 to 5 on the first go. It was a cake walk; the Soviets got slaughtered and I only lost one tank.

And I thought Kursk was supposed to be tough.

I know you can't leap to conclusions based on the demo, but it makes me wonder a little about game balance. I don't know what the point balance in the scenario is, but the Germans had 200 point bonus to try and even it up, which I suppose means that point wise they're closer to being even with the russkies than not.

I tried the scenario from the Russian side and took several attempts to stop the Germans; even so I took heavy losses (1 tank, 8 guns, other tank's gun damaged, lots of teams lost).

I'm beginning to think CMBB will be a untermenchen Soviet slaughter at the hands of the uberNazis. I know, I know, new game engine, lots of changes, new doctrines gotta be applied, and don't leap to conclusions.

It does look absolutely amazing. :eek:

kunstler

[hobo]

87-13 on the first try using extreme FOW. However I think I was pretty lucky as I must have had 20 hits from their 45 mms and lost only 3 tanks.

The key as was mentioned before was using the terrain to your advantage and the covered arcs command. There was this Russian tank doing a shoot and scoot every turn. It would pop up and a round and hid again. I directed 4 tanks from different angles to focus a very narrow beam on the spot he was popping up and and scored 2 hits and a kill the next turn. This is really going to change the way we play PBEMs.

A few other comments:

- I love the supersonic bullet sounds and tank muzzle blasts.

- I think I like the extreme FOW. I would like a little more info on the infantry but they have done a great job modeling what i should know on tank and gun hits. If you really want to test (or torture yourself) turn off the "detailed armor hits". I was not brave enough for that one.

- I am struggling with the new interface but think I will like it shortly.

- I want the damn game!!!

Regards,

Hobo

[dfgardner1]

In Citadel I had major victory with Germans on first go with a +1 bonus to the AI. Played with 'Extreme Fog' setting.

I used the MkIvs as overwatch unit with 2 platoons of Mk IIIs advancing using covered arc and hunt command. This appeared to have effect of entire platoon engaging a target that the first AFV spotted.

Upon contact, the MK IVs did pretty good job of supressing while I ran the MkIIIs into nearest hull down position.

I did find the 'hunter killer' teams to be a nuisance (they got 3-4 AFVs) and the ATR teams to be an annoyance (like 'where are they shooting from'?).

The KVs were dispatched using a 'swarm technique'...give them multiple targets and get close....very similar to Egyptian tactics in Avalon Hill's old Arab Isreali Wars . In fact, from the german side Citadell had the AIW feel to it.

Anyone else get the AIW feeling?

[ September 03, 2002, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: dfgardner1 ]

[demoss]

Something probably worth pointing out on this one is that the Russian initial deployment is downright awful. I tried it as Russian just for kicks without changing anything and was lucky to come away with a draw, but found total victory relatively easy when I set up intelligently (my tanks never made it into action - held them in reserve until then end). There are some truly excellent places to put guns.

Now I'll have to try it as the Germans with free setup to see if the AI can find any of those excellent places.

[420]

would anyone like to share the tactics they used to win as the Russians on Citadel? I keep getting creamed by the Germans.

[demoss]

1) Don't even THINK about using the default setup. All but about two of the AT guns are in bad positions, IMO. I'll leave it up to you to figure out which.

2) Site your AT guns with limited fields of fire so that you don't get the entire friggin' German Army opening up on the one that took the good shot it had.

3) Plan on taking side shots with your AT guns, rear shots with your AT rifles, and no shots with your Maxims.

3.1) Since you aren't going to be taking shots with your Maxims, use them to spot for the AT guns, so they know when they need to be ready to open up; keep the AT guns hiding for as long as possible.

4) Use your tank hunter teams primarily for last-ditch defense of the objectives. Hope you don't need to use them. Alternatively, use them to protect the backside of an ATR crew or AT gun that is facing away from the front line - just be ready to lose both quickly.

5) Use your tanks as a mobile reserve. Decide where the main fight is going to take place, and position them initially behind that area and out of sight - ideally, their initial position should be a decent one for an AT gun, so that NOT moving is a reasonable option. Despite what you may have heard about KVs, the KV-1S is a lighter version that can be penetrated frontally by Pz IVs with no problem (and don't count out the Pz III). Don't expect them to last long in a stand-up fight.

Did I leave anything important out?

[Eden Smallwood]

It looks like I'm just a bit late; I'll echo what "Demoss" said, I think. Can't read it now that I'm posting.(?!?)

I play all scenarios with "equal" settings, and "let computer put stuff where it wants" and FOW at "partial". Anyhow.

I tried a couple times as Allied with the stuff where it was already setup- it just really looked, well, nice, you know? I think I got about 1 Axis gun damaged with that setup!

So then I setup myself yesterday in spartan crossfire arrangements with tanks behind hills playing peek-a-boo. Major victory, which seems misleading, because I had one tank left and a gaggle of stray crew and flumoxed AT people. At least I finally stopped those damn panzers!

My AT units aren't for sh*t. I haven't taken out a tank with one yet. There was one guy who was stuck staring at one tank, and he went through all 23 of his ammo without making a dent. ?!?

Every single angle and distance I've looked at, the screen says, "Kill: none". Excuse me?!? WTF are we DOING out here, COMRADE!?!? Sure, I love the party and everything, but you're arming me with a squirt gun?

Ah well. Coherent questions and comments later,

Eden

[Agua]

Originally posted by 420:

would anyone like to share the tactics they used to win as the Russians on Citadel? I keep getting creamed by the Germans.

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Tank Hunters - I left those guys in the copses of trees they were originally hidden within, placing covered arcs so as to withold attack until the TH was to the rear/side of the vehicle to be attacked. In this instance, they didn't take out a single tank and the two situated in the copse of trees through which the road runs were mowed down with by the tanks' MGs. The other group never engaged any tanks as no tanks entered within their arcs.

The ATR guys were set up in the rough areas on hills south of the river bed. My goal here was to simply to harras various AFV's within the formations so as to, hopefully, break up the integrity of their formations and limit the number of tanks that would be within the covered arcs of the ATGs at any single moment.

I set the ATGs in groups, clustered together so as to provide nearly identical covered arcs for each ATG within each group. One group was set well to the west on the south side of the river bank and included four ATGs. One group was set on the reverse slope of the eastern hill immediately south of the river bank. A third group, with an ATR nearby for support, was set up well back near the "primary crossroad" flag, but they were never engaged. The ATGs on the SW side of the river bank were all given long and narrow covered arcs to defend running from west to east which were to be activated at the earliest point that LOS could be obtained. Same with the ATGs on the reverse slope of the eastern hill, except their arcs stretched westward. The arcs of these two groups did not overlap, but rather, the arcs of the group on the eastern edge were effective to the south and east of the group on the SW bank of the river. The goal here was to get flank shots on the tanks as the came within the arcs, and not before.

The KVs I kept to the west of the group of ATGs on the SW bank of the river for the purpose of: 1) cover against an approach by any tanks coming to the rear of the ATG group from the west, and 2) circle around the hill on the south side of the river and west side of the road to engage the Pz formations from their rear, taking out as many as I could and further breaking up the cohesion of the formations so as to, hopefully, allow the Pz's to enter into the ATG kill zones piecemeal.

The KVs performed better than I had anticipated. One took out three PzIIIs and two Pz IVs while the other took out two PzIIIs. One especially cool (and by cool, I mean ...) moment was when a Pz IV was reversing up the hill on the east side of the road to get LOS on my KVs. It reversed right into the arc of the ATG group situated on the reverse slope of that hill.

The ATG group on the east side of the road took out an additional Pz (total two), and the ATG group on the SW side of the river bank took two out as well. Time ran out on the scenario at 47 turns and no flags held by the a/i. Four tanks remained and I lost three ATR units, two TH units, three ATG's, one KV. There may have been a MG casualty in there as well, not sure.

[rvalle]

Played as the Germans, Ex-Fow: Total Victory 98% to 2%. I had one tank imobilized and that was it. Rolled over everything else.

rvalle

[Guest Mike]

88-12 for Citadel as the russians on standard settings - lost 7 AT guns, 2 men kia, 10 wounded.

51-49 draw as Germans on the other scenario who's name I can't pronounce let alone spell!!

[Chad Harrison]

I didnt do too bad on the citadel. I must of been lucky, because all the AT rounds bounced off my german tanks. I only lost two Mark III's, and one Mark IV to an immobilization shot. I engaged both russian tanks at long range, and the german options pulled through on that one!

The best part of the scenario was when I made it to the end of the map, and I blew up those two building to see what happens! Explosion, dust, and rubble!! :eek: I love this game.

Chad