"Nazi Fan Boy" Scenarios

[Billy Prior]

This was raised in the 'Wittmann in the East' discussions and, I think, is a wider issue that I'd appreciate people's views on.

I share other correspondents' views that there are scenarios out there that, for want of a better phrase, are neo nazi in sympathy in that they are set up to allow the Axis player to win easily regardless of the Allied player's response. I fully accept that there are historical scenarios where this will occur but the example being discussed (Wittmann in the East) is ahistorical.

Personally, I'm uncomfortable about ever playing as the Axis (and this is not to say that I shouldn't feel uncomfortable about playing as the Soviets given the character of Stalin's regime), and haven't modified my edition of CMBB (or CMAK) to display swastikas for this very reason.

I'd very much like guidance on 'scenarios to avoid' that are ahistorical vehicles for neo nazism.

Billy Prior

[c3k]

Okay, approaching with a 10.5' pole (since I wouldn't touch this with a mere 10' pole);

I would be hesitant to equate neo-nazi sympathies to a scenario heavily in favor of the Germans. It is very easy to be lured into the trap of creating scenarios which reward German forces. (Mercedes still trades on the "German engineering" mystique.) Panthers ARE sexier than T-34's.

Now, add in some Jagdpanthers, etc., and a belief that every German AFV is able to destroy 20 to 30 times their number of Soviet units and you have "fan boy" scenarios. Sure, it can be a fun form of target practice, but that's about it. (Perhaps there's a utility to such scenarios so those who are unfamiliar with the plethora of German armor can play with them and find out which each of them are.)

Regards,

Ken

[Joachim]

Ignoring the usual "I'm not a Nazi stuff" (I ain't till proven guilty) I state that not each and every scenario which is a cakewalk for the Germans is a "Nazi fanboy scen". I usually beat the AI in most scens and I had huge successes in QBs with +200% or more bonus for the AI (usually on the defense). Does this make QBs "Nazi fanboy QBs?"

Many scenarios which are designed for "H2H only" play out as a cakewalk for the Nazi. I designed one that is both a cakewalk for Axis vs AI as well as for Allies vs AI. There may be other reasons why certain scens are easy playing as Germans vs AI.

I strongly oppose classing scens as "Nazi" just because they are easy for German vs AI.

Gruß

Joachim

PS: CMBB is bad vs evil - but that holds for many games.

[zmoney]

I really don't think people make crazy scenarios because they want to make people believe that Germans were unbeatable soldiers, because we all know how WW2 ended.

I think it's just like what was stated before; German tanks are sexier than Russian tanks to most people.

I personally prefer Russian equipment but I am by no means a commie sympathizer. It seems like most new players always pick the Germans, and when you crush them with the Russians they act surprised. So I think it’s just that most people hear about how some Tigers faired well in WW2 but they tend not to here how the other 98% of the panzer arm faired, because it wasn’t as interesting to hear I “fired at a T-34 and KO’ed it then his 10 buddies shot at me and blew my tank up.” It’s way more interesting to hear how a Tiger was pinged over a hundred times and the crew lived to talk about it.

[K.A. Miles]

Originally posted by zmoney:

I personally prefer Russian equipment but I am by no means a commie sympathizer. It seems like most new players always pick the Germans, and when you crush them with the Russians they act surprised.

Hehe, it is true. It's amazing to me how often German-playing opponents underestimate the humble Russian weapons, such as the ATRs, 45mm AT guns, Molotov coctails and the like. I also prefer to play as the Soviets, but I certainly have no love for communism.

[PanzerMiller]

Couldn't agree more with what's been said here...an interest in German military equipment, command structure, and the typical combination of manpower inferiority and technical superiority make playing as the Germans alot of fun for me personally as well as many others on this forum...but DOES NOT make me or them a Nazi FanBoy. Enough with the generalities!

[painfbat]

How come this topic sounds so.......JasonC to me?

"It is a Nazi fan-boys joke, nothing whatever to do with the battle of Kursk." and

"The whole thing is a joke, a way of murdering puppies on the computer screen. I've got one just like it the other way, set in June of 1944, in which the Russians get gobs of T-34/85s and veteran SMGs and Guards infantry, plus 120mm spotters and rocket prep, against 2 battalions of conscript SS infantry with no AT weapons. I call mine "Nazi Punks **** Off"."

Maybe, just ,maybe, we could ask the designer about the scenario, before acting like JasonC our all American soldier who forgets the "not-quilty untill proven" when his WWII trauma takes over control and he starts seeing an "International Nazi Conspiracy" to take over this website

People like you, talented with knowledge and a master scenario-designer, should know how difficult it is to make a good scenario. It's not fair accusing someone without inviting him to the discussion.

Just my 2 euro cents.

Cheers

[Wodin]

To say your willing to play the Russians over the Germans from a moral point of view is ridiculous.

More innocent people were killed by Stalins regime than the Nazis. The only reason he isnt vilified like Hitler is is that he was on our side. In mass murder stakes Stalin would beat Hitler hands down.

If you wont play the Axis then surely you shouldnt play Russia. Infact if you have such moral convictions then the whole of the East front should be left unplayed.

[Der Kuenstler]

Most of us love to hate Nazis - I agree - you can't respect those who commit genocide. I recommend everyone read "Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee" if you want to see how Americans did basically the same thing to the Indians - just over a longer period of time - not quite as Germanly efficient and organized about it - but no one came to rescue them.

[DEY]

It is very simple thing to fix, isn't it. If you can't find scenarios made by other people that suite you, then make your own.

Also this is a bloody game for christ sake, some of you people got to lighten up a bit, even more to the point I really think more then a few around here need to seek some professional help.

It's a done deal, started and finished over sixty years ago.

[Bogdan]

Originally posted by Billy Prior:

Personally, I'm uncomfortable about ever playing as the Axis (and this is not to say that I shouldn't feel uncomfortable about playing as the Soviets given the character of Stalin's regime), and haven't modified my edition of CMBB (or CMAK) to display swastikas for this very reason.

Oh come on, that's a really old story, isn't it ?

Are you a nazi-fanboy just by picking the german side in our quick battles ? Are you a communist enthusiast when playing the soviets in Ukraine '43 ? Please stop : I consider people here to be mature enough and play CMBB without any political "feeling" behind.

Or this forum is full of NKVD lovers and NSDAP nostalgics ! Tell me then...

You cannot play this game with this kind of "morale preference" : both sides fought for a dictatorial regime and genocidal politics. War on the eastern front has nothing in common with war western allies fought in north Africa nor in western Europe : it was a war of annihilation, a war of complete destruction of populations, soldiers, equipments, industries, cultural references, languages, religions, identities. For example : Nazi program for the eastern territories was to destroy and control population by starvation, and then repopulate the "empty spaces" with german colons. On the other hand, Stalin has drastically modified the eastern european boundaries and this resulted in massive moves of population (eastern Poland, former east Prussia, etc.). Then the "empty spaces" were repopulated...

Occidental people cannot really imagine how fierce and merciless was this war : did germans burnt every norman villages they left, did allied troops shot every captured german soldiers they found. No. Or maybe in some rare occasions. It was more than normal in the east : burned villages, pillages, starved to death prisonners, shootings, rapes, etc.

So you're not choosing the "good" side by picking the soviets in CMBB ! Forget about that !

It's the same idea about the swastika : if this flag represents a totalitarian and genocidal regime, why not then replace the soviet flag with something else too ? Stalinism was a totalitarian and genocidal regime too. So pick up an historical flag mod and forget about the rest, or quit CMBB.

Finally, if some players here design some scenarii with a whole uber-Tiger-abteilung and a bunch of fanatic elite SS grenadiers, against some obsolete 30's guns and conscript T34s... ...well... let them play alone. If this could make them happy ! The problem would be that those designers make this battle to vehicle real nazi ideas or "admiration". But first, we should let them explain their motivations and listen to them objectivelly. We cannot judge them as "Nazi-fanboy" without any defence.

By the way, if these scenarii are really bad, uninteresting, then let the vast population of players and playtesters give an opinion about. We will be fixed soon.

[Aragorn2002]

Well spoken, Bogdan. But this discussion will never stop, unfortunately.

[zdenka]

i played this scenario shortly after buying cmbb soon after it hit the shops.although its ridiculously easy to achieve a major victory as axis i never saw it as anything other than a training scenario.as was mentioned earlier,if you tuck the panthers behind the ridge and wait til the soviets enter the killing zone you learn the basics of terrain use.

playing as allied it is tough as it obviously was not intended to be played that way.

[rum]

Originally posted by Wodin:

More innocent people were killed by Stalins regime than the Nazis.

By the way, this is a typical statement for NaziBoys ©

[zmoney]

Originally posted by Der Kuenstler:

Most of us love to hate Nazis - I agree - you can't respect those who commit genocide. I recommend everyone read "Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee" if you want to see how Americans did basically the same thing to the Indians - just over a longer period of time - not quite as Germanly efficient and organized about it - but no one came to rescue them.

Of course everything comes back to being "America is just as evil".

Obviously you have no idea about what happened at wounded knee or any idea about the American and Indian wars. It was nothing like putting jews in the gas chamber among other things.

Honestly I have no idea how your statement equates to anything to do with scenario design.

Plus I don't think Jason meant people actually think that Nazism is a good thing. I think he meant people beleive Nazi equipment is so much better than anything the allies had so they make these scenario's that aren't accurately representing force mixture and calling it historical.

[painfbat]

= = Obviously you have no idea about what happened at wounded knee or any idea about the American and Indian wars. It was nothing like putting jews in the gas chamber among other things. = =

No, you're right. Those millions of natives just got lost somewhere down the road.

[Billy Prior]

This thread seems to have struck a few nerves. Thanks to everyone who has posted, great to hear your views. I believe that many of the opinions expressed are irreconciliable in that they are expressions of philosophical differences. On a practical level, I've learned I never want to play 'Wittmann in the East'. Any other scenarios out there that are so unbalanced AND ahistorical that I should avoid them?

Thanks in anticipation

[Wodin]

rum,

Please take that back. Im stating something that many historians tend to think.

Bogdan,

Well said.

Billy Prior,

Its just a game. I think you will find most wargamers want historical accuracy. The scenario you mentioned is just badly designed.

[Chipaev]

All this over a poorly balanced scenario?

You guys are too much!

Anyway, I think if a game makes you uncomfortable playing a side, don't play the side, your choice. I will say that both sides in this game have interesting and fine points which you are missing out on. It is just a game, however.

[zmoney]

Originally posted by painfbat:

No, you're right. Those millions of natives just got lost somewhere down the road.

Wow, millions, now it's really getting outrageous.

Just because you know a tiny bit about history such as the US took over Indian lands. Doesn’t mean you know the whole story, it’s obvious you don’t if you think that millions died. Then to equate that to the holocaust is just another example of how little you know.

Plus I never said what happened was right I just clearly stated that to compare that to the holocaust is ridiculous. Plus I don’t see why some feel that they need to bring America into everything. Why couldn’t he have listed any other countries misdeeds if he was trying to make a moral equivalence? Why is the US always tied into something evil like the holocaust?

[MeatEtr]

Originally posted by Billy Prior:

Any other scenarios out there that are so unbalanced AND ahistorical that I should avoid them?

Thanks in anticipation

Your joking right? But to answer your question, yes, of course.

But remember now, just because a scenario is poorly balanced in favor of a side doesn't necessarily make the scenario or the designer a nazi fan boy or a communist. No need to start threads about it just because 1 guy said this in another thread.

I know of a pro-nazi scenario where the briefing states you must give the nazi salute at the end of your orders briefing. Then, right before you click "GO" you must sign off a loud "heil hitler".

[ April 12, 2006, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: MeatEtr ]

[Mike Summers]

I enjoy playing "unbalanced" scenarios at times, particularly on the short side of the stick. Knowing there is a slim (or no) chance of winning kind of sharpens your tactics, trying to eke out the most of every unit.

And just because I enjoy playing a war game doesn't make me a fan of war, no more than enjoying having a platoon of Panther's in my arsenal makes me fan-boy.

[Corvidae]

Next topic please ,,

and zmoney, yes ,, MILLIONS ,,, we were almost exterminated , and it was a deliberate policy,

Please feel free to minimize the genocide by coming to a rez and spewing your garbage to the elders, we need more fishing bait,

[David I]

I will at least play, at least once, any scenario with any army, German, Italian, Romanian, Hungarian, Finnish (love their tank busting toothpicks), Russian, Polish or Partisan. Does this make me a "fan boy" of every country? Wait a minute - I think it does. I would love to travel to any one, or all of them.

DavidI

PS. I want to see a horror movie, with lots of killing. But no chainsaws! I would like some guidence and I anticipate your reponses.

DI

[Billy Prior]

Okay, let's all take a deep breath and try again shall we...

Are there any other scenarios out there that are a) unbalanced and ahistorical

So I can avoid wasting time on them...

Cheers,

Billy