CMBB is quite "gamey" and Ruskies are way too good

[Nikke]

Here are some observations of a long time hardcore strategy gamer...at first CMBB seemed like a dream come true. Kind of like a combination of ancient board game Squad Leader that I loved in the 80's mixed with some Close Combat and another game I used to love...Kampfgruppe for Commodore C64...ancient predecessor of Steel Panthers. All this with great 3D graphics and everything modeled so realistically that all "gamey" aspects that we're such a problem with the above mentioned games are history.

Now, I'm seriously reconsidering my position. CMBB is a tremendously cool game, but just as gamey as the ones mentioned above. The biggest problem, if you ask me, is that "spotting" does not appear to be modeled relatively. I.e. when some bastard sees my unit...all others with LOS to my unit "see" it too and start firing like hell. This does not reflect reality.

Also, Russians are modeled too favourably. The kill ratio between Germans and Russians in WWII was something like 1 German to 5-10 Russians. With Finns it was about 1 Finn to 10-20 Russians. An example: although T34 was, on paper, a very nice machine, it also lacked radio in all vehicles in the early stages. It had a small crew, without radio, that had to operate in VERY limited space. The german early AFVs were more spacious and had a bigger crew. Also the training of German tankers was far superior to that of the Russians. The Russian AFVs are far too good in CMBB. I don't see blindly moving packs of T34s, who have problems with hitting. Instead, I see T34s operating just like their German counterparts and being equally efficient. The same is true for infantry. Typical Russian infantryman of WWII was a peasant, whereas his German counterpart was far better educated, trained and more technically oriented. The Russian had a system of politruks, political officers, which lead to tremendous on-field bureacracy. If the Germans could counter-attack within a number of hours, the Russians could do the same within few days pending approval from the bureacratic machine of communist officers. Especially early in the war, Russian infantry tactics very extremely crude. They usually just "human-waved" with one unit position behind the attacking ones in order to kill any one failing to attack as ordered.

All in all, make no mistake about it. I like the game. But it's quite gamey, far from being realistic. That I can take. So are all other games too. A bigger problem is the modeling of Russians....don't know whether it's about the scenarios designers or the engine...Russian are just too good. In reality they, including their tank crews, sucked big time compared to their German and Axis counterparts. They won by outnumbering the Axis...

take care, Nikke

[aka_tom_w]

stay tuned for CM II

the engine rewrite

it might address those issues and it is at least 2 years away

-tom w

[TikiBob]

Oooh, I'd duck if I were you....

I think you may find that a vast amount of people in here know vastly more than you about anything regarding WWII and everything regarding CMBB...

Soooo, soon you may be proved wrong.

Ken

[mcgivney]

Originally posted by Nikke:

Russian are just too good. In reality they, including their tank crews, sucked big time compared to their German and Axis counterparts. They won by outnumbering the Axis...

take care, Nikke

Hi! You're wrong. Have a nice day.

[Peterk]

> I.e. when some bastard sees my unit...all

> others with LOS to my unit "see" it too and

> start firing like hell. This does not reflect

> reality.

Yes and no. If you're in a foxhole and you you hear some of your units off to the left shooting at something _they_ see, then it makes it easier for _you_ to see and shoot at as well. But I hear what your saying...it's called borg-spotting on the board.

> They won by outnumbering the Axis...

I guess this comes down to what type of battles you are playing. I've played lots of games where the Russians are Green or Conscript against Veteran or experienced Germans and then, yes it comes down to overwhelming the germans with numbers.

If you're playing quick battles or scenarios where experience/forces for both sides is equal, then that goes out the window.

[Redwolf]

It is people like you who give us CMBB-bashers a bad reputation

[Schrullenhaft]

Relative Spotting will make a huge difference with your 'observations' once it gets coded into the next engine.

Regarding some of your 'Russian quality' observations, some of these issues are accounted for. For example Russian tanks that don't have a radio are modelled as such and will have higher command delays if the HQ tank's commander is buttoned up. I'm not sure if the modelling of radios includes variants that didn't have them in the early part of the war, but may have had them later on (i.e. - if a model had a radio at some point during its deployment, then it may always have a radio during its 'availability'). The current Absolute Spotting model somewhat nullifies the lack of radios in many Russian tanks. Thus the Russians don't suffer to the extent that they historically did. The German advantage of superior communications can only be modelled so far without a Relative Spotting model.

As for crew quality - what experience levels are you using for your Russians ? There's no 'national modifier' that makes any side better than the other. A 'regular' experience German will have the same performance (generally speaking) as a 'regular' experience Russian, etc. If you want to simulate 'early war' Russian formations use 'Conscript' or 'Green' experience levels with leaders who lack most leadership bonuses. While these characteristics won't be true of every Russian formation in the early war period, it can simulate some of the disadvantages the Russian units had. Beyond that some of your 'observations' may be due to the strategic situation the Russians were in rather than the nitty-gritty details of tactical combat.

[Nippy]

Originally posted by redwolf:

It is people like you who give us CMBB-bashers a bad reputation

"My Tiger died! IT DIED! I can't beleive how nerfed this game is!"

The Russian had a system of politruks, political officers, which lead to tremendous on-field bureacracy. If the Germans could counter-attack within a number of hours, the Russians could do the same within few days pending approval from the bureacratic machine of communist officers.

Yeah the Ruskies were so inflexable. Not like the Germans. Just ask the 6th Army at Stalingrad how flexable German High Command was...

[Soddball]

Hmm. This thread sounds to me like sour grapes from an UberFinn who's sulking because his glorious Finnish army has been cut to ribbons by the AI because his tactics suck so badly.

If your troops are getting killed, that's your fault. If you're popping tanks up and a dozen other tanks are quickly zeroing in on it - you're popping your tank up in the wrong place.

Just because you suck at CM, don't blame the game engine.

[Nikke]

First of all...I said I liked the game. Still do. Thanks for some of the useful responses. It probably really is the lack of relative spotting that's causing the problem with Russian AFVs not being "bad and inefficient enough". Oh well, have to live with it.

Am just reading "Battle Group!" by James Lucas dealing with German Kampfgruppe's in WWII. It's interesting to note that a surrounded German battlegroup in ©Holm in Russia...before the era of panzerfausts and panzerschrecks...in winter 1941...and with only one 37mm PAK gun killed a total of 43 russian AFVs and held out against 100 "major" russian attacks. How did they do it? They we're simply superior soldiers. Russians had worse morale. They sniped their officers and took out the lead tanks (which had radios) with mines and grenades. Rest was chaos. This series of fights is such a typical story...6 Russian infantry divisions, six independent infantry divisions and two tank brigades failing to take a city with a 3500 man kampfgruppe in it...with one 37mm Pak...no tanks. Russians...won, when they won, with quantity...not with quality.

take care, Nikke

[Soddball]

They we're simply superior soldiers. Russians had worse morale. They sniped their officers and took out the lead tanks (which had radios) with mines and grenades. Rest was chaos. This series of fights is such a typical story...6 Russian infantry divisions, six independent infantry divisions and two tank brigades failing to take a city with a 3500 man kampfgruppe in it...with one 37mm Pak...no tanks. Russians...won, when they won, with quantity...not with quality

In that case, play scenarios where the Russians have a 10-1 advantage in points but only have green and conscript units, fighting against dug-in veteran and crack Axis units. See what happens because I think you will be surprised by the outcome.

[Nikke]

Thanks. Am not trying to troll or anything. Just posting my observations. It does seem so that to reflect real performance during WWII...Germans should usually be vet/crk and Russians conscripts or greens. I've for example read very many histories where a single Panzerkampfwagen IV kills 3-5 T34s within a few minutes. That was an everyday thing during WWII...much more common than the other way around. Better accuracy, less cramped interiors, separate reloader, radios, better training etc. all these issues why T34s were often at disadvantage against type IVs and even type IIIs.

take care, Nikke

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Nikke:

This series of fights is such a typical story...

If it is such a typical story, then why in most cases Germans got beaten so badly under similar circumstances? You are demanding a unique, historical incident to be generalised as a basis for simulating the whole war, totally refusing to see all those times when Germans routed or surrendered to their enemies.

If you are interested in German elite units, then go ahead, play scenarios depicting them and avoid those late war scenarios in which regular or green axis units are facing veteran Soviets.

[Andrew H.]

Originally posted by Nikke:

Thanks. Am not trying to troll or anything. Just posting my observations. It does seem so that to reflect real performance during WWII...Germans should usually be vet/crk and Russians conscripts or greens.

[qb]

You really have to distinguish between years. Your point is probably correct for 1941 (well, vets and regulars for the germans), and to some extent true in much of '42, but it becomes less and less true as the war progresses.

[qb]

I've for example read very many histories where a single Panzerkampfwagen IV kills 3-5 T34s within a few minutes. That was an everyday thing during WWII...much more common than the other way around. Better accuracy, less cramped interiors, separate reloader, radios, better training etc. all these issues why T34s were often at disadvantage against type IVs and even type IIIs.

take care, Nikke

With one caveat, I don't think that this is particularly uncommon in CMBB...and if you use a StuG III instead of a Pz IV, it is usually the norm. The caveat is that the Pz IV was not used alone (even if one tank did most of the killing), and it was in an area suitable for tanks. The fact that one Pz IV can knock out 3-5 T-34s does not mean that if you buy one Pz IV and your opponent buys 5 T-34s, the historical result should be for you to knock out most of the T-34s.

[Nippy]

I've for example read very many histories where a single Panzerkampfwagen IV kills 3-5 T34s within a few minutes.

Here's what you do:

Boot up the QB Generator with a 2000 point Meeting engagement in June of 41. Pure Armor for both sides. German Quality Regular. Soviet Quality Green and Conscript. Plunk it all down on a large map with light trees and hills.

"Holy 120 second command delays Batman!"

I just finished up the Above battle myself. I used only 1300 of the 2000 points given to me (I played as the Germans and chose my own forces) and lost 5 tanks to the Soviets 53.

...now to try it as the Soviets.

[kipanderson]

Hi,

The causality ratio, German to Soviet, from the start of July 34 to the end of March 45 was 1 : 1.64.

The German casualty figures come the German High Commands own record of its losses. Also note, they are to the end of March 45, they do not include the round up of the last six weeks of war. The lose ratio for the first half of the war was close to 1 : 4.5, 1 : 6 during the first year of the war.

CMBB models this very well. Do note that in a CMBB human v human game representing the first half of the war it is unlikely the difference in skill levels is likely to be as great as it is was in reality. Thus, if the respective manoeuvre units on each side are modelled with their historically accurate fire power, it will be very difficult for German players to achieve similar results to that achieved historically. Unless you want CMBB to “fix the result” by artificially lower the firepower of the individual Soviet manoeuvre units, in human v human games set in the first half of the war, it is unavoidable that the German player will have great challenges in trying to achieve historical results.

All the best,

Kip.

[Mud]

Nikke should, perhaps, search for the numerous threads on the board suggesting books to read. Anything by Glantz or Erickson would probably be a good start, and both would disabuse the reader of any "Russian human horde" misconceptions.

[manchildstein (ii)]

one thing... does the t-34 in 1941 have too fast of a turret traverse? on the one hand it seems to turn as fast as a sherman turret in cmbo... on the other the t-34 had a small turret...

[Schoerner]

Originally posted by kipanderson:

The causality ratio, German to Soviet, from the start of July 34 to the end of March 45 was 1 : 1.64.

...

The lose ratio for the first half of the war was close to 1 : 4.5, 1 : 6 during the first year of the war.

But the force ratios need to be taken into account.

It's much more difficult to achieve a 1:1.64 while the force ratios are 1:3 - 1:12.

[imported_Wildman]

I must have recieved a poorly coded, beta version of the game then. All my russian (green) T-34 can't hit the barn, take over a minute to get moving, and are dieing in droves. I get three lined up on a german PzIIIN and all three miss it takes 30 seconds to reload with the turret limitation and the PzIIIN take two shots and backs over the hill.

Rinse and repeat.

Why don't you try Tiger Tiger as the Ruskies versus a competent Human Opponent. Try Mr. Spkr. He's doing quite well in ours.

[Mark Gallear]

Nikke has a point - I personally think that T-34s and KVs in 1941 and the first part of 1942 are just not rare enough. (I know I lost the argument that the Russians should not have T-34s in June 1941 but come on potential use in last couple of days of the month must make them a bit rarer than July at least!)

I use T-34s and KVs every QB battle - I am not going to buy BTs or T-26s or those tankette things (Well only that one time) cause I am not an idiot - unfortunately that’s what a lot of Russian tankers went to war in.

Everybody also assumes the Russians took up defensive positions in the June/July battles - not so - Russian military thinking was offensive -the battles were encounters and that suited the Germans just fine. One Russian commander in June disobeyed his orders and took up a solid defensive position - he won.

[Olle Petersson]

Regarding how crappy the Soviet soldiers were:

I recently read the story about a Soviet rifle battalion that defended the southern outskirts of Moscow in December '41.

The ground had just frozen solid, with a minimum of snow, thus providing perfect conditions for tank combat.

The rifle battalion were to put up a hasty defence in a small village on one of the main routes to Moscow. They knew that at least one German armour division was heading their way.

They had previously been badly beaten and were down to a total of 29 men. To fight the tanks they had 100 Molotov coctails and a 37mm ATG that had 7 AP rounds.

There was no time to do any fortifications and they had no mines.

At dawn they could hear the German armour and soon spotted the first PzKw III a few hundred metres away.

Before closing in the tanks shelled the village in some "recon by fire", causing lots of damage but no casualties.

Then the Germans got closer and the battle started...

After the battle all 29 Russians were dead but 14 German tanks knocked out.

Trying to recreate this in CMBB has failed this far, with only a few German tanks destroyed in spite of the fact that I've made the map more favourable to the defenders.

Cheers

Olle

[V]

Originally posted by Nikke:

[QB] Thanks. Am not trying to troll or anything. Just posting my observations. It does seem so that to reflect real performance during WWII...Germans should usually be vet/crk and Russians conscripts or greens.

I wouldn't say that, by '43 and certainly by '44 the Soviets had some very experienced, good divisions in their army and by '44 the Germans had much of their army bled white and were relying more and more on inexperienced troops.

[Three_Oh_Eight]

Originally posted by Nikke:

Russian are just too good. In reality they, including their tank crews, sucked big time compared to their German and Axis counterparts. They won by outnumbering the Axis...

Just thought I'd chime in on your beating. (Joke, it’s a joke! Really!)

But your assertion is off the mark, and sounds like the result of reading too much German (or German biased), history. The Wermacht was the premiere military force in Europe by virtue of training and their military's 'culture' (starting well before, and having nothing to do with, Nazism BTW). When faced by troops without their level of training and expertise they romped. Most Soviet units had nowhere near parity in this area. This was not the case, however, across the board, and at the tactical level it could easily be the reverse. Global casualty ratios are interesting, but have little to do with a game at this level; this is obvious in that a 1:5 ratio doesn’t mean that every time there was an engagement 5 Soviets died for every German. A series of dead even fights followed by a rout (of which there were many, especially early in the war) will produce the same ratio.

In short, the idea that, at the tactical level, all Soviet troops sucked, is flawed. Soviet experts were as expert as the Wermacht.

And from my short (short!) time playing the game it seems that this is modelled well using relative experience levels. I’m having a heck of a time attacking with Conscripts!

[Mud]

Schoerner --

Glantz in _Clash of the Titans_ cites the Russian:German force ratio over the front as only reaching 4:1 in May '45. In fact, starting November '41, the force ratio was 1:1.9. It took until Feb '43 for the ratio to become 2:1, after which it dropped until July-Oct '43. Glantz shows 3:1 only after October '44.

So, if the Germans ever faced 12:1 odds against, it wasn't because they were thusly overwhelmed over the entire front.