Ever lost a battle to AI?

[Herr Oberst]

How about the demo scenarios the first time???

Install and play. Who needs a manual...

Last Defense IIRC...

Infantry advancing along the left flank after being dropped off by the HTs, Stugs covering them and leapfrogging coverage for themselves and the infantry. Sneaking a platoon along the woods on the right, then having the Tiger come down the road on the right side, leveling the building by the wheat field, supporting the infantry advance on the right. This game is so sweeeet... Taking a ride along with the tiger commander as he hunts out targets. Wondering "Man, I wish I could crunch up those guys in that foxhole..."

Then in one turn, the Allied armor reinforcements showed up, crested the hill and I'm down two Stugs and the Tiger.

Son of a beeeech!!! #@^$%#!$ $%$@!!

[Cafard]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Itchy:

I've lost many a time against human opponents, but never to the AI.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, i can't say the same, especially in my first games.

I'll always remember my first try on "Chance Encounter" with the gold demo. Playing Germans, i had a bad inspiration, and had my StuGs (only 3) go a little bit too far on the hill in the middle of the map, where Allies Shermans saw them (5 or 6 of them). Lost my StuGs on turn 2 or 3, lost the game in the end...

In small engagements, i feel it's easy to lose to one single tank bad manoeuver or bad luck. When i don't have much armor and i manage to lose them, the AI hardly reminds me that she still has hers :mad:

[Gen-x87]

Just got worked again last night LOL!

Well it was a draw. I need to quit being so damn inpatient. I lose my armo because of that. Also I need to look at the tanks I buy. My mistakes are all small detail mistakes. I can move my infantry fine now with cover support from HMG 42 crews ect ect but I need to envision the battle field better. I placed a 75 AT gun on a hill that unfortunatley did not have the LOS to where the attack came from. My other 75 was knocked out by a Sherman when it was embarked on a tow truck. The shot was meant for my PZ IV but missed and whacked out the to truck and the gun! Ouch! They also dropped the biggest shells I have ever seen on my pooyly placed 75. These thing were friggin huge. They made explosions like I have never seen in this game. And left craters large enough to place 2 squads. Anyways that knocked the gun and a MG crew and a mortar track out with only 6 shots! It also infliced about 6 casualties on a platoon that was 50 meters away!

Dang!

Gen

[MikeyD]

The reason (excuse) for me loosing to the AI is almost always artillery. I start a random quick-battle, get my units into a good position, then it starts raining 120mm mortar rounds on me for the next 5-6 moves!http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/eek.gif Have enough artillery dropped on you and conscript Volkstrum units can take you afterward!

There hasn't been much discussion of the joys of Quickbattles on this forum. Just plug in random forces; large map; night; snow; and give the AI a +25% advantage!

[stodge]

For me it's the other way round - how often do I win! Usually I lose more than I win, although I'm proud of the victory I achieved against a ton of Allied armour.

[Shatter]

For me, just the very first time. Started the demo(CHANCE ENCOUNTER),and got my butt kicked by the Americans. After the first battle I ever played, I knew that I had just played the best game of my life. Immediately ordered CM and have been a CM junkie ever since.

[Terence]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Itchy:

Ever lost a battle to AI?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure, all the time.

[Blenheim]

I loss nearly half of my battles....

The AI is quite good defending, but not so good attacking really. And when I try a new scenario blindly, I sometimes get really badly beaten...

Yeah, I am a not so superbowl player. Sue me....

[Terence]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blenheim:

I loss nearly half of my battles....

The AI is quite good defending, but not so good attacking really. And when I try a new scenario blindly, I sometimes get really badly beaten...

Yeah, I am a not so superbowl player. Sue me.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My problems in winning games of CM are multiple, and span the macro to the micro scale.

I do not carefully formulate a simple careful combined arms plan for attack or defense. You might think this makes me flexible. You would be wrong -- indecisiveness does not benefit from flexibility.

My attacks are short advances from cover to cover, and I'm always unprepared for the eventual ambush. I don't use any recon. This also means that in areas with no cover, I don't know what to do.

My defenses are static and never in depth.

I say this is because of shortages in resources, but in truth its because Im, well..., I don't know why I can't do this.

On the small scale, Im always so eager to see the next turn that I don't always consider all lines of site, attack and advance for individual units. I forget the enemy is making plans as I do. I don't use view #1 enough to plan moves. I focus on one side of the battle and forget the other side.

I shell areas where no enemies are and waste ammo because I forget the target line was set.

I adjust the target line for the FO so often that the poor guy spends the entire battle firing spotting rounds.

I forget about smoke.

And because of all that, Im amazed I ever win anything at all.

edit: I forgot to mention that my pondorous lumbering attacks are always chewed up by long range tank fire and artillery long before they reach their goals. The men arrive exhausted and badly beaten up, if they arrive at all.

[ 04-20-2001: Message edited by: Terence ]

[MadDog0606]

Of course I lose to the AI. The first time I played the Beta Demo I lost. But only me and the AI know how often I lose, and it never makes fun of me and calls me a mommas boy (and it never will if it knows what's good for it!).

But, I have learned by my mistakes in doing QBs with the AI. The AI has taught me to run from cover to cover, don't bunch your men up, Smoke is your friend, Combined arms is GOOD, BEWARE of that 105 (allied) or 150 (German) infantry gun (I HATE those guns when I'm on the receiving end). In my last QB a darn Allied 105 infantry gun blew away one of my Pumas and made a platoon of SS Wussies run back to their Mommy!

[ 04-20-2001: Message edited by: MadDog0606 ]

[Guy w/gun]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chupacabra:

Um, not a flame, and this certainly isn't intended as a boast, but I can honestly say that I've never lost a game to the AI. I don't really see what the big deal is. I don't consider myself a particularly skilled player, as my PBEM opponents can tell you. Playing the AI is different from playing humans, is all I can say.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only way I can see this as possible is if you were very very knowledgable about WWII tactical combat. Not at all impossible, but just kinda interesting since I had to figure out through loss after loss that a Sherman's best friend is it's traverse. When I started playing, I knew nothing. My knowledge of the game is massed from scratch. Unless you already knew all about WWII in advance, I don't see how you could have won Chance Encounter as the Germans the first time to played. I have yet to get anything better that an "Allied tactical Victory" when I play Axis on that one.

And for the record, I rarely lose to the AI when its a ME or when I defend, although When I attack it can get pretty bloody. Now in a QB where all units are picked randomly, or a scenario I have never played before, I often get chewed up and spit out.

[ 04-20-2001: Message edited by: Guy w/gun ]

[uhduck]

Terence, your description of your gameplay style sounds remarkably like mine. I am constantly amazed at the tactical discussions that many posters place on this board. With the kind of thought, planning, and attention to detail they talk about putting into the placement of their units, lines of advance, defenses-in-depth, interlocking fields of fire, etc., etc. I wonder how much time they have in a day to devote to playing CM? With the limited time and opportunities I have to actually play CM, if I attempted to put that much time into the placement of my units, studying the terrain to determine fields of fire and the best avenues of attack, etc. I would never get to the point of pushing the Go button before it was time to turn off the computer for the evening! I'd rather just play and if the result is bad, learn the lesson and start another game the next opportunity.

By the way, I also lose to the AI. One particularly bad experience I remember quite vividly was the first (and at this point only) time I played 712th at Pfaffenheck. I played as the Americans and the Germans, after wiping put most of my armor in the first few turns, won a major victory.

[Terence]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by uhduck:

Terence, your description of your gameplay style sounds remarkably like mine. I am constantly amazed at the tactical discussions that many posters place on this board.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, old man, I'm confident that there are more like us out there, and they are just too chicken**** to admit it or haven't seen the thread yet.

I think that as far as tactics are concerned, its a lot easier to talk a good game. But theoretical discussion and knowlege are almost entirely useless unless they can be put into practice.

Tactics is, to put in another way an entirely applied science. No theoretical advance is worth a hill o'beans until it is tested and proven on the battlefield.

No offense to Adam Lloyd and CavScout and all those guys who post about doctrine at great length. I read a lot of what they write and find it fascinating.

But while I know that there are things I should do, I can't seem to start doing them or stop doing the things I shouldnt do. Or something.

I do know not to send 4 half tracks over the crest of a hill to take out a dug-in AT gun in the woods with their machineguns, though. I did learn that.

[bazooka10165]

I just played a scenario called "Son" in which it is very tough to win as the Americans against the AI. This was true even after I had played it as the Germans and knew exactly what I would be facing. I'm not sure if Son ships with the CM or if you have to D/L it from somewhere.

[ 04-20-2001: Message edited by: bazooka10165 ]

[Guy w/gun]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bazooka10165:

I just played a scenario called "Son" in which it is very tough to win as the Americans against the AI. This was true even after I had played it as the Germans and knew exactly what I would be facing. I'm not sure if Son ships with the CM or if you have to D/L it from somewhere.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I remember Son well.....*shudder* I played that one and I couldn't believe what I had vs. what I had to defend against. I got my ass so kicked, my comp actually laughed at me! If anyone beat that scenario the first time they played it, then I must have no hope of joining the ranks of the "Uberplayers" on this forum.

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That scenario was unbelievably hard. Absolutly no cover! My AT guns were knocked out so fast! The leading part of my defence in the building across the river was completely wiped out!

[ 04-20-2001: Message edited by: Guy w/gun ]

[Guy w/gun]

Terence, uhduck, I'm glad to hear that there are people willing to admit the things that you all are. I too am amazed at the stuff discussed on forum! What makes me even more astounded/frustrated is the way people are so matter of fact about all of it, like it's common knowledge. Hmm...maybe I found my first potential PBEM opponents...what say ye Terence, uhduck? Want to PBEM (after I find out how that is )? Email me if your interested

[uhduck]

Guy W/Gun: I have never played a PBEM, generally, I have so little time to play that I don't want to leave someone hanging for days or even weeks waiting for a turn. Let me read the manual this weekend on PBEMs and I'll get back to you on Monday and possibly we will blunder our way through our first PBEM!

[Jarmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Guy w/gun:

If anyone beat that scenario the first time they played it, then I must have no hope of joining the ranks of the "Uberplayers" on this forum. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not beating actually, but does it count for something that I pulled a draw as amis in a double blind PBEM?

[Guy w/gun]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jarmo:

Not beating actually, but does it count for something that I pulled a draw as amis in a double blind PBEM? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I could see that happening, since both you and your opponenet didn't know what was coming. Sometimes it may actually be easier to play a human, the AI is never "blind"!

[Monte99]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Terence:

My problems in winning games of CM are multiple, and span the macro to the micro scale.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great post, Terence! No doubt many of us could claim the same lack of skill, but we are not so honest.

[BloodyBucket]

Earlier in this thread I admitted to losing to the AI on occasion.

After reading what Terence wrote, I have to admit that when I do lose, it is due to impatience, or more often, deer in the headlights stupidity.

Many is the time I've thought, "I might get away with it this time! After all, the manual said that even when there is no chance for a kill a lucky hit might do SOME damage."

So my Stuart takes the frontal shot at the Tiger. And I stare at the results like a deer in the headlights. I know better. I know tactics. The urge to fly in the face of probability is just overwhelming.

After all, someone has to get that firing slit penetration at 500 meters against the AT pillbox. It could be me this time, right?

(Wow, that sound mod makes you wince when the Sherman brews up.)

[Warmaker]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Deuce:

I can't recall a single Warmaker post where he didn't use the phrase "soda can." I'm begining to think you have something against allied armor. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, my friend, I do have hold something deeply against Allied armor. You see, I was of course real ecstatic upon getting CMBO. Tried a QB with the German FJ and had a blast for my first game (and got a lucky draw). Wanted to see things on the other side of the fence so I picked a relatively large QB with tons of armor. Upon picking the U.S. I was happy with the sheer numbers of Shermans I brought along. To make a long story short, I lost all my armor to just about every which way you can: ATGs/Panzers/'schrecks/infantry assaults/cowardice(abandoning)/mines/sneezing. You name it and whatever angle I probably lost a Sherman to it. To top it off when my weary infantry finally got to the objective they caught something that the AI didn't seem to use until late in the game: A friggin' Tiger. And I had no TD/Shermans left. That thing reafirmed my knowledge of the deadliness of the '88. I give much praise for my infantry's suicidal assaults to try to destroy this beast but every assault failed miserably. The Germans won it, needless to say. After the game I cursed the Shermans for their paper thin-ness and vowed not to use them any more. Except for... experiments... when seeing how cool the latest Tiger/Panther skins are in blasting the soda cans. There, I finally used my token phrase

[ 04-20-2001: Message edited by: Warmaker ]

[Itchy]

Guy w/Gun "How in the hell have you never lost to the AI? Are you sure your not streching that a bit? Either you played nothing but humans from the very start or you were imaculatly born into knowing how to play CM."

My old man asures me my conception was not imaculate(I put my fingers in ears and start humming a tune). Honestly though, its a genuine claim. 80% of the battles I play against the AI are QB's and my method of playing is to rarely reveal armour and to crawl inf accross the map. When playing a human opponent they know that if theres no unit markers by the 3rd turn i'm being a stealthy **** so they pound all available tree lines with arty and inf guns.

Anyway, I said i've lost to humans but I think I could take you on Guy hehehe. If you're up for the challenge i'll be signing up with www.tournamenthouse.com in the next few days. The glove is down.

[Jarmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Guy w/gun:

Sometimes it may actually be easier to play a human, the AI is never "blind"!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

:confused: What do you mean by that? I don't get it. :confused:

The AI is always blind, it newer knows what it's facing..

[Stacheldraht]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The AI is quite good defending, but not so good attacking really. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I used to believe the first part of that statement, but over time I've come to think the AI isn't really that skilled at defense, either, at least in QB's. Fortifications, particularly roadblocks, end up in some weird, useless places. Vehicle usage often borders on gross incompetence: i.e., milling them around aimlessly. I don't recall seeing the AI launch a coordinated counter-attack, preferring to sit there and take what's dished out at it. It rarely uses arty in a pre-emptive fashion, trying to hit or disrupt attacking units on the way in, and when it does use arty, it's usually too late to do much good. Units will sometimes be placed out in the middle of the open (in foxholes, by default, but still.)

That said, AT gun placement is often handled well, and the AI usually has the patience to wait for good shots, and it also waits until the last minute to reveal most troops. Its main advantages seem to stem from the inherent advantages anyone would get from defending: concealment and cover coupled with surprise.

I don't mean to complain, considering how good the AI is overall for a game of this complexity. But over time I've come to notice many holes in the AI and hope they'll be addressed for CM2. It really is quite easy to beat once you've played for some time, though good scenarios help, as does giving the AI experience bonuses.

[ 04-21-2001: Message edited by: Stacheldraht ]