Puchpen things : dang ~

[von shrad]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 15 months in the German army gave me an uncanny ability to decipher obscure acronyms

Fer Feck's Sake. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

(most convincing voice) Just like I thought. But how do you say that in German? That's what I wanted to know. Geez Andreas, a little quicker on the uptake.

von shrad

[New Age Santa]

Personally I didn't find his posts smug at all, I think people are just looking for an excuse to fight.

[Doug Beman]

Okay, swear I didn't read any of the thread past the questions, and haven't looked up anything yet. I just wanna see how accurate my memory is.

DER!! I just realized that I posted all of my answers, thus ruining the validity of the test. SORRY!!

DjB

[ 09-19-2001: Message edited by: Doug Beman ]

[dalem]

The worst thing about all of this is that now I have proof that I'll never be able to read it all.

Damn.

Anyway Slapdragon, I have seven out of ten without looking anything up - missed a leader name but knew a bonus. Can I get out of the next quiz?

-dale

[Doug Beman]

Okay, now I'm gonna admit to being lazy and ask Slap to post my score, or email me the right answers. I have to make dinner, pack for my weekend trip (PSU football, nothing better!), iron office clothes for tomorrow and Friday, and then (hopefully) go to bed.

DjB

[Andreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by von shrad:

(most convincing voice) Just like I thought. But how do you say that in German? That's what I wanted to know. Geez Andreas, a little quicker on the uptake.

von shrad<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just shut up and get the van...

How I would say that in German depends entirely on my mood...

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Andrew Hedges:

I thought the largest tank battle in history occurred between the US and Iraq.

Also, does "France land" mean the French mainland or "French land."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

French main land and no.

[Fieldmarshall]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

Just shut up and get the van...

How I would say that in German depends entirely on my mood...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But German Boy? Would it be formel or informel...????????????

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doug Beman:

Okay, swear I didn't read any of the thread past the questions, and haven't looked up anything yet. I just wanna see how accurate my memory is.

DER!! I just realized that I posted all of my answers, thus ruining the validity of the test. SORRY!!

DjB

[ 09-19-2001: Message edited by: Doug Beman ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just e-mail me the answers.

[Slapdragon]

80%, but he got the extra credit, and even got the trick question!

[Slapdragon]

How about this as a way to take our minds off of world events.

I will write a truely tough WW2 history quiz. No ultra obscure idiot trivia (like how many road wheels on a Char but very tough questions you might find in one of my history classes. I will post the questions on Friday. The first person with the most questions correct who e-mails me after the sign up period is over, and I will buy them a copy of CM:BB (and ship it to them unless they live someplace mail costs 50 bucks, like Maine).

Anyone interested in a little contest to pick up spirits?

[Pak40]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cauldron:

I just have never heard of this thing - which is pretty remarkable concidering I have read 80% of the WW2 books ever written.

Does someone know the rarity value of this thing, who thought of it, was it useful etc etc... I want the historey of the puchpen 88 in 5 paragraphs - you know the idea- WAR in 2 volumes hee hee...

I have also never figured out how the Germans won WW2 against KV-1's in 1941/42. It sure will be interesting to see how a Pz II kills a KV...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You guys take it easy on this guy. He clearly states "in 1941/42", which the Germans were winning up to that point.

The Puppchen is essentially a Panzershrek with more propellant and a longer barrel for more accuracy.

[ParaBellum]

How about that:

You send me a free copy of CMBB and I tell you whatever you want.

That's OK?

If not, I would (of course) be honoured to join your quiz show!

BTW I'm still thinking about that brit magician... tough question.

[von shrad]

Yeah, I'd love to be a student in this guys class. I hope he doesn't chastise and try to humiliate his pupils like he did Cauldron.

'Bzzzzt. wrong answer, dumbass.'

Keep your 50 bucks.

BTW, I know a few wannabie Deputy Sheriffs. Do they all enjoy punking around pimply-faced teenagers?

von shrad

[Chupacabra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by von shrad:

BTW, I know a few wannabie Deputy Sheriffs. Do they all enjoy punking around pimply-faced teenagers?

von shrad<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I would, wouldn't you? Especially if they're the teenagers in my neighborhood. Little puswads.

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ParaBellum:

How about that:

You send me a free copy of CMBB and I tell you whatever you want.

That's OK?

If not, I would (of course) be honoured to join your quiz show!

BTW I'm still thinking about that brit magician... tough question.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is the toughest one.

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by von shrad:

Yeah, I'd love to be a student in this guys class. I hope he doesn't chastise and try to humiliate his pupils like he did Cauldron.

'Bzzzzt. wrong answer, dumbass.'

Keep your 50 bucks.

BTW, I know a few wannabie Deputy Sheriffs. Do they all enjoy punking around pimply-faced teenagers?

von shrad<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nahhh, mostly we punk around midwestern manual laborers after they puke in the back of our patrol cars.

Most students cannot get humilated, I have some great students.

[ 09-19-2001: Message edited by: Slapdragon ]

[von shrad]

Hehe...I bet you would sure try. You wouldn't be the first wannabie Dick I have made meet the pavement.

You are probably pretty tough with your police friends backing you up. Guess what? I have these friends too and they and I don't care about 5 dollar an hour badge wearing sissies like you. You are an ass. A smart one, but an ass just the same.

von shrad

And yes I enjoy manual labor. Great benefits and an awesome pension too. Don't mistake me for ignorant though, it will cost you more than you think.

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by von shrad:

Hehe...I bet you would sure try. You wouldn't be the first wannabie Dick I have made meet the pavement.

You are probably pretty tough with your police friends backing you up. Guess what? I have these friends too and they and I don't care about 5 dollar an hour badge wearing sissies like you. You are an ass. A smart one, but an ass just the same.

von shrad

And yes I enjoy manual labor. Great benefits and an awesome pension too. Don't mistake me for ignorant though, it will cost you more than you think.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually I grew up on a farm, so I enjoy manual laboir also (except maybe hay making, which sucks ass.)

I am just a volunteer deputy, so I don't get paid. I am also a coward on the street, being married does that.

The guys who whine about the police the most, are always the ones that cry for use the loudests when its theirs on the line.

One thing I discovered about being a coward in a police unform, I always have a radio. Big mouth guy showing off for the crowd (like you are doing here only in real life without cyber walls between us) and I can get as many of mine as you have plus five, and mine are better trained. Of course luckily most of the work is helping old ladies across the street and the like -- being part of the community, and the like, but guys with something to prove are always out there, and we are who they like to prove it on.

My full-time partners though work hard for their dollar and I respect them a great deal.

Of course the best way to punk around with some ass is to treat him politely, and just drive him as is off to jail. No skin off my teeth if he has a sudden desire to meet bubba the love sponge in the county lock up smelling like puke and pepper sprayed because he thought he could fight the police. Otherwise its live and let live on the street.. You would be surprised how polite people can be to each other, especially in this time of crisis. Except for a few morons that is, and they just get ignored or get drug down to county, as their actions may warrant.

[ 09-19-2001: Message edited by: Slapdragon ]

[von shrad]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> My full-time partners though work hard for their dollar and I respect them a great deal. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fair enough.

von shrad

[Hanns]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon:

[QB]

1) What was the name of the Magician that worked in the desert campaigns as a camoflauge expert?

QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sigfried & Roy???????

forgot to add the smiley

[ 09-19-2001: Message edited by: Hanns ]

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hanns:

Sigfried & Roy???????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope. I bet though if I give the name people will be able to find out about him on the Internet. He was, in his age, one of the most famous British magicians.

[Michael Dorosh]

Haskayne

[Michael Dorosh]

Oh ick, just read the whole thread. Sorry Slapdragon -thought that was thrown out for general consumption.

Doesn't threatening another poster with physical violence count as grounds for banning? Not that you've never heard that before, Slap, but do you think he really has pimples?

[JasonC]

There were 3150 of these launchers made, most of them in 1943. Most of the ammo for them was made in 1944, though, amounting to 96 rounds per launcher. Which is substantially less than regular PAK, with their better range, but still indicates significant use. In numerical terms, they are about as rare as German heavy tanks (above and not including Panthers), and nothing like as common as ordinary PAK on the one hand, or Panzerschrecks on the other.

Considering when they came out and their capabilities, they were probably used mostly in the east, from the end of 1943 through mid 1944, with fewer available by late 44 when the western front was opened up, since production of the launchers had already stopped.

They are more useful in CM games than in the real war because small maps make their limited range less of a liability, compared to say a 75mm PAK 40. And they are cheap, because CM has no rariety system effecting unit prices (though one is planned for the Russian front version), and because all light guns are cheap. That makes them popular with cherry pickers looking for combat power bargains.

As for the other question about how the Germans managed to win consistently against T-34s and KV-1s in 1941 and 1942, when they had inferior tanks themselves, it is worth examining in some detail. First off, though, notice right away what it proves - that the technological dominance theory beloved of some modern armor grogs (which might be briefly stated as "the guy with the best fielded tank should win") just seems to be flat wrong at the strategic scale. Almost the exact opposite is true for almost every period of the war, and the very least one could say is that having the best fielded tank, alone, made no discernable difference at the strategic level.

One reason for this is that the tech-dominance idea gets misled by the "averaging up" phenomenon. People imagine that the whole tank fleet was made of the best types being produced, right when they were first fielded. Which is not even close to true. Often the better tanks were a modest portion of the fielded fleets, , at least in important periods, and there was always a lag between increased production of a model and it making up enough of the fielded force to make have any impact. I'll go into some of the fleet composition issues later on in this post, for the 1941-1942 Russian front.

The second illusion involved is that tanks are dueling other tanks and nothing else is on the battlefields or matters. Sometimes only the turreted tanks are considered, also. Again, this is not remotely true. Towed guns are as numerous as AFVs overall and often more capable in their raw firepower, fielded earlier, or both. And operational moves involving armor sent against mostly infantry and gun forces were at least as decisive, and far more common, than tank fleet clashes. This was especially true in the first half of the war.

So let's look a little closer at what the situation was in 1941 and 1942, examining fleet mix, deployment lags, and other things available to KO tanks, besides other tanks.

The T-34 was a rare item in 1941, but the dominant production tank thereafter. Not the only type made, though. The KV series was rare in both 41 and 42. 3/4 of the 1941 fleet mix were light tanks armed with 45mm guns - T-26s and BTs amassed in huge numbers before the war began. There were as many new 20mm light tanks (akin to the German's Pz IIs) made after the invasion, as there were KVs - slightly more actually. Only 1/6 of the Russian tanks available by the end of 1941 were either T-34 or KV series, and those themselves were weighted 2:1 in favor of the lighter T-34. In absolute numbers, the Russians fielded ~1600 KVs and ~3000 T-34s, many of them only toward the end of the year.

So, just for starters, 5/6ths of the Russian tank fleet of 1941 could be KOed by 37mm, short 50mm, or short 75mm guns, which were the weapons of the German armor fleet. What did the Germans have to deal with the heavier critters? It helps, first, to review what weapons were useful against the T-34 and the KV-1, in what ways.

The 50L42 could KO a T-34 with regular AP, against the lower side hull only, at reasonably close range - 500 meters. The 75L24 if firing HEAT ammo could KO a T-34 at any range with a hit on the lower side hull, or a decent hit on the turret (meaning, one that by direction or chance got a modest impact angle). 88 FLAK could KO either tank at range, any angle. So could 105mm and 150mm howitzers firing HEAT ammo. Once out, the 50L60 gun could penetrate the lower side hull of the T-34 with standard AP at ranges up to 1 km, and with PGr 40 high velocity ammo, could penetrate fronts and sides if the range was quite close. The 75 long could penetrate them from the front at useful ranges, near 1 km. In short, the early tank guns need side shots on vunerable points, special ammo at vunerable points, angles, or ranges. The larger towed guns were effective at range and from any angle, though the howitzers needed HEAT of course. Eventually the 75 long gave AFVs and common towed guns the ability to deal with them.

As we saw, in 1941 about 1/6th of the Russian fleet were the heavier makes, and the absolute number of them (combined) was arond 4600. So how many of the heavy towed pieces did the Germans have by then? The army had 1300 150mm howitzers and 3000 105mm howitzers. There were also 125 army heavy FLAK guns and 3200 88 FLAK under Luftwaffe control, though that is for all fronts of course, and most were being used to defend Germany. Before the end of the year they also fielded 2400 long 50mm as towed PAK.

So basically, 5/6ths of the Russian AFV fleet were thin armored and the German tanks could deal with them, while the other 1/6th were matched, item for item, by towed artillery pieces that could KO them at range with the right ammo. So the Germans used "PAK fronts", or flanked and closed with their own AFVs (tossing 75mm HEAT at turrets, and aiming for lower hull sides with everything else). Russian armor doctrine helped - most of the heavies were used supporting infantry in penny packets of 10-20 well-armored AFVs, working with a portion of light tanks.

That is the 1941 story. But in 1942 the T-34 became the main production type, and was no longer a minority item. But does this mean from January 1, 1942, the Germans faced fleets of nothing but T-34s? No. About half of the 1942 fleet were T-34s, and about 40% were light tanks, evenly divided between 45mm and 20mm versions (T-60 and T-70). The KVs remained a minor item, on the order of 1/16th of the total fleet as in the previous year. Even this fleet mix is the average for the year. Some of the pre-war tanks were still running, and T-34 production was still ramping up for the first half of the year, as relocated factories can on-line, etc. In addition, the Russians did not throw all of this production at the Germans as it rolled out of the factories. Some did, but they also saved up the T-34 fleets used for the late 1942 counterattacks. Which -weren't- defeated; they retook the Don basin from Stalingrad to Kharkov. So the mystery of how the Germans defeated that portion of them is moot. Overall, the Russians fielded 14,300 T-34 or KV-1 tanks during the course of 1942, and they still had quite a few of them at the end of the year. Overall Russian fleet strength rebounded strongly, after falling 2/3rds from the pre-war level in 1941.

As the Russian fleet transitioned to T-34s in the course of 1942, the Germans fielded many additional weapons to deal with them. There were additional howitzers, bringing the totals to that date to 1900 150mm and 4200 105mm, minus whatever they lost before. There were also another 200 self-propelled ones of both calibers combined. Army 88s were 300 by then, while the Luftwaffe had received 6000 of them. Another 90 were in the first Tiger Is, out by the end of the year. More important were 2850 75mm long on AFVs (900 Pz IVs, 700 StuG III, and 1250 Marders of all kinds) and 5700 75mm towed PAK. There were also ~2000 Pz IIIs with long 50mm and by that date ~7000 50mm long as towed PAK.

All told that is (1) 9000 dedicated PAK or army heavy FLAK, 75mm long or better, another (2) 9000 dedicated PAK with 50mm long which were not really adequate, plus (3) 6000 howitzers able to due the job if they had HEAT, and (4) 6000 more 88 FLAK off serving with the Luftwaffe. To handle whatever portion of the 14.3K well armored Russian tanks weren't held out for the fall offensives, when the above overall armament proved inadequate to stop all the T-34s.

In 1941 and 1942, the bulk of the German force able to deal with the heavier Russian tanks consisted of towed guns. Of the 30K weapons listed in the previous 1942 summary, only about 1 in 6 was on an AFV - or if the 50mm longs are discounted, 1 in 7. In 1941 all of them were, and all of them were meant for other roles initially (FLAK or tossing HE indirect). But in that year, as already mentioned, the KVs and T-34s were comparatively rare, 1/6 critters themselves, and used in penny packets.

The changes in 1942 on the two sides were (1) the Russians went from mostly light tanks to a 60/40 mix in favor of mostly T-34s, and (2) the Germans fielded serious numbers of dedicated PAK, in AFVs or towed but mostly towed, that could deal with them. A large portion of the overall capable gun force was still duel role - howitzer or Luftwaffe 88s. But by the end of 1942, 9000 weapons had been fielded that were both meant almost exclusively for anti-tank work, and able to kill a T-34 from the front at 1 km ranges. They were outnumbered no more than 3:2 by their potential targets, the T-34s and KV-1s.

When you look only at the tank match ups in 1942 you see the German fleet without nearly enough 75 longs, and many older weapons, and the match up may seem incredible, for the success the Germans achieved for most of that year. But the Germans had the big guns out by then. They just didn't have them in tanks yet (only a portion, about 1/3rd).

The towed guns are upgunning ahead of the tanks. By 1943 the tanks will be upgunned too, and the old 50mm (long or short) and short 75mm are phased out. That transition just happened 6-12 months sooner for the towed gun part of the force, because tanks are harder to produce in significant numbers, quickly. As late as the end of 1943, twice as many AT weapons 75mm and up had been built as towed guns as had been built into AFVs.

I hope this is interesting.