Some "less desirable" features in CMBO

[Ari Maenpaa]

After playing CMBO quite intensely recently, I would like to point out some "less desirable" features in this excellent game. Most of the following things have already been discussed on this forum, but I still want to make my findings known. This way it might be possible to help CMBB to be even more enjoyable. At least from my subjective point of view. Here goes...

- Every now and then the turretless vehicles seem not to be able to automatically rotate towards an already SET target. The gun gets pointed as far as possible towards the target, but the rest of the vehicle remains static which prevents shooting. A rotate command in following turn is required to fully wake up these tanks. Very frustrating when a whole turn gets wasted this way.

- Spotting anomaly. Enemy troops can sometimes get perfectly identified far away from any friendly units. This seems to be a random feature. Most likely a bug.

- Even disregarding orders, tanks tend to shoot smoke shells at enemy infantry located in buildings. This is usually frustrating, but can sometimes be nearly catastrophical. Very rarely I have seen this feature to be desirable.

- In some cases CM reveals too much information about tanks being hit by gun rounds. Even if it isn't identified yet, the game still reports which part of the tank was hit. A superstructure hit instantly tells that the target is turretless vehicle, for instance.

- The last, but not the least: the poor tacAI for tanks. Multiple targets can basically drive tanks crazy in CM, and that constrains effective use of armor quite much. It also opens easy possibilities for gamey tricks. I have found turretless SPG's to be good choices just because they are less prone to hunt every secondary target in sight. On the other hand tanks with slow turrets usually offer the most frustrating playing experiences. Many times I have hoped that the Tiger tank would be turretless.

So I would gladly second the fine proposal to add some kind of "target filter" for tanks. Two different options for instance: 'engage everything' or 'engage armor only'. This has been discussed so much that maybe there's better solution coming in CMBB

Ari

[panzer nut]

Have to agree with one point - the whole random smoke shell use thing. What is that all about?

Doesn't just apply to afvs, happens with guns, mortars too.

Operator panic???

"Your crabs'll leave ya now..."

[Speedy]

You can turn the detailed armour hits off, check the hotkey list.

[Doug Beman]

The random smoke firing is a known issue. Some interaction between the AI subroutine that governs ammo use (how much HE is left? how much AP? Which should I use?) and the subroutine that governs enemy-threat level (Can I kill the target? Can it kill me? Should I shoot or back up?) is ever-so-slightly off, meaning tanks will occasionally decide to just unload all smoke rounds at a target (probably a target that poses a minor threat, and that the tank believes it can't hurt, like infantry in a heavy building or something.)

Bad/inefficient targeting is also a known issue. When vehicles are faced my many threats in many directions at many ranges, the AI is unable to duplicate a human's thought patterns and do something like "I know there's a tank behind that house so I'll wait till he comes out" or "I'll ignore these X things that normally can hurt me but can't right now."

We've already raised the cry of BTS PLEASE FINK OR DO SOMEFIX and they're working on it.

DjB

[Equinox]

Ill chime in with something annoying Ive noticed. Again, if its been discussed/identified before Im sorry.

If you set a waypoint with pauses for a unit, and then shift the destination by dragging it with your mouse, the pauses are removed. I cant imagine that that was intentional myself.

[Jagdwyrm]

I really like the "target filter" idea. Would be very nice for AT guns, so they don't give away thier position to shoot at a damn 2" mortar 1000m away

[Moriarty]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Equinox:

Ill chime in with something annoying Ive noticed. Again, if its been discussed/identified before Im sorry.

If you set a waypoint with pauses for a unit, and then shift the destination by dragging it with your mouse, the pauses are removed. I cant imagine that that was intentional myself.<hr></blockquote>

If I remember correctly, pause commands work only at the beginning of the turn. You can't order a squad to move, pause for 15, 30 seconds, and move again.

[tabpub]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Moriarty:

If I remember correctly, pause commands work only at the beginning of the turn. You can't order a squad to move, pause for 15, 30 seconds, and move again.<hr></blockquote>

That is my opinion also, FATIW.

[Equinox]

Nothing here, just a rambling sleep deprived college student.

[ 11-01-2001: Message edited by: Equinox ]</p>

[DevilDog]

Beman:

What he's referring to is a bug where your tank sees multiple enemy units at different distances, where movement of the enemy units causes their threat level to change so that your tank alternates targeting them. This completely debilitates tanks as they will just sit there turn after turn spazing back and forth between multiple (the most I've ever seen was 3) targets, but never firing.

I sent Madmatt a turn that displayed this and after looking at it for awhile he said it was a definite bug, but they were too busy working on CMBB to fix it. No big deal as it only happens occasionally. But it is exasperating when it does happen.

Hopefully it'll be fixed in CMBB. It should be real easy - right now the AI must be set up to switch targets as soon as a higher point target pops into view. So a one or two point differential will cause a target switch. What needs to happen is put a requirement in not to switch targets until a certain threat percentage of the current target is reached, i.e. if a new threat appears don't switch to it until the threat from it equals or exceeds 105% of the original threat.

[Pak40]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Equinox:

You misunderstood. Give a unit one/two pause commands then set a movement command into a set of scattered trees (for example). Grab the box at the end of that movement and adjust it to a different point in the trees and the pause commands disappear.<hr></blockquote>

Sorry, this isn't true. I've adjusted many many waypoints after assigning pauses and the pauses never have disapeared. However, if you delete the waypoints then the pause will disapear; this is the only way to get rid of the pauses if you change your mind.

[Pak40]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Ari Maenpaa:

- Every now and then the turretless vehicles seem not to be able to automatically rotate towards an already SET target. The gun gets pointed as far as possible towards the target, but the rest of the vehicle remains static which prevents shooting. A rotate command in following turn is required to fully wake up these tanks. Very frustrating when a whole turn gets wasted this way.<hr></blockquote>

I don't think I've ever had a problem with this, it must be very rare, but never the less a bug.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Ari Maenpaa:

- Spotting anomaly. Enemy troops can sometimes get perfectly identified far away from any friendly units. This seems to be a random feature. Most likely a bug.<hr></blockquote>

This doesn't surprise me since randomness or fuzzy logic is in fact part of the LOS equations. This is not all all unrealistic since any unit, if visible, has a chance to be properly identified, no matter how far it is from the spotting unit.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Ari Maenpaa:

- Even disregarding orders, tanks tend to shoot smoke shells at enemy infantry located in buildings. This is usually frustrating, but can sometimes be nearly catastrophical. Very rarely I have seen this feature to be desirable.<hr></blockquote>

Yea, this isn't common but it does happen and hopefully will be fixed in CMBB

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Ari Maenpaa:

- In some cases CM reveals too much information about tanks being hit by gun rounds. Even if it isn't identified yet, the game still reports which part of the tank was hit. A superstructure hit instantly tells that the target is turretless vehicle, for instance.<hr></blockquote>

This information is optional in the game, it can be turned off.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Ari Maenpaa:

- The last, but not the least: the poor tacAI for tanks. Multiple targets can basically drive tanks crazy in CM, and that constrains effective use of armor quite much. It also opens easy possibilities for gamey tricks. I have found turretless SPG's to be good choices just because they are less prone to hunt every secondary target in sight. On the other hand tanks with slow turrets usually offer the most frustrating playing experiences. Many times I have hoped that the Tiger tank would be turretless.

<hr></blockquote>

I agree, it very frustrating when these things happen. However, I also realize that real life commanders made BAD decisions in the heat of battle, such as switching to a less dangerous target. So, in a way CM actually models the bad decisions made by some tank commanders. Experience of the tank will lessen the bad decisions.

[dumrox]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Pak40:

Sorry, this isn't true. I've adjusted many many waypoints after assigning pauses and the pauses never have disapeared. However, if you delete the waypoints then the pause will disapear; this is the only way to get rid of the pauses if you change your mind.<hr></blockquote>

A better way to get rid of pauses is to issue additional pause commands until the pause delay cycles back to 0. 1 pause = 15 sec, 2 = 30, 3 = 45, 4th pause command removes all pauses.

[Equinox]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Pak40:

Sorry, this isn't true. I've adjusted many many waypoints after assigning pauses and the pauses never have disapeared. However, if you delete the waypoints then the pause will disapear; this is the only way to get rid of the pauses if you change your mind.<hr></blockquote>Eh, Im having a very poor day. I thought I had seen some sort of bug when I was playing last night. :confused: Forget I said anything.

[Col Deadmarsh]

That smoke bug should've been fixed in one of the gazillion patches BTS put out. I'm dumbstruck as to why it wasn't since I find it to be happening in about 80% of my games. Very annoying.

The other big bug that needs to be fixed is the "shooting gallery" bug where men will walk back and forth as they're shot at, constantly changing directions until they're dead. What really bothers me is that a squad can be spitting distance away from cover when shot at and then turn around and run back to where they came from instead of just continuing forward and then taking cover.

The one little thing that needs to be fixed is when you have targeted arty on a previous turn and come the next turn, you want to re-direct the fire. Currently, you have to click on a spot if you want to see the time difference it will take to re-direct. The problem is, if you don't like that spot, you're screwed. You can't go back to your old spot unless you load the turn back up. Let's see this fixed for CMBB.

[Juha Ahoniemi]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Speedy:

You can turn the detailed armour hits off, check the hotkey list.<hr></blockquote>

I think You missed the point : If You use, say, Jagdpanther, and it gets a hit(superstructure). Your enemy (who havent identified AFV yet, he/she may see it as panther?) instantly knows - not a turreted vehicle and can adjust his/hers gameplan accordingly. So it gives unfair advantage to Your opponent. I bet that Your opponent haven't switched detailed armor hits off...

[tabpub]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

...The other big bug that needs to be fixed is the "shooting gallery" bug where men will walk back and forth as they're shot at, constantly changing directions until they're dead. What really bothers me is that a squad can be spitting distance away from cover when shot at and then turn around and run back to where they came from instead of just continuing forward and then taking cover.....<hr></blockquote>

Unless you are in the situation I was in. Troops shot at, they go to run foward into the woods, where there is barbed wire(not bad),and a cunningly disguised AP minefield(bad). After the 1st squad of the platoon was blown to bits, you'd think the other 2 would get the hint, but

no they run right in too to join their Kameraden in Valhalla...almost broke my hand that night...can't wait to do this to someone else...

[Ari Maenpaa]

Thanks for replies.

As there seems to be room for misunderstandings, I’ll quote my original post and try to explain the points more thoroughly.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Ari Maenpaa:

- Every now and then the turretless vehicles seem not to be able to automatically rotate towards an already SET target. <hr></blockquote>

I have noticed this feature quite often. Very recently my Lang and Hummel refused to punish enemy infantry just because the target was out of the zone on which the gun could rotate. Both vehicles had preselected targets, but didn’t rotate their superstructures even one degree to allow them to engage. Also this happens against not-selected targets, but that’s usually a good thing.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> - Spotting anomaly. Enemy troops can sometimes get perfectly identified far away from any friendly units. <hr></blockquote>

I meant enemy troops which AREN’T in the view of ANY friendly units. Once this happened to me in a scenario where visibility was only 54 meters. Suddenly I got a perfect identification of an enemy infantry team which was located about 200 meters away from the nearest friendly unit.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> - Even disregarding orders, tanks tend to shoot smoke shells at enemy infantry located in buildings. <hr></blockquote>

Typically I want my tanks to blast enemy occupied buildings to smithereens asap. Nothing is more frustrating than to see how the target building gets covered by smoke and allows the opponent to relocate his troops safely. And like someone already said, smoke usage isn’t problem only for tanks.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> - In some cases CM reveals too much information about tanks being hit by gun rounds. <hr></blockquote>

Yep, there’s the combination of SHIFT + D, but what help is that in PBEM play? Of course I could make my own play more challenging, but usually I don’t want to get handicapped by any way against human opponent.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr> - The last, but not the least: the poor tacAI for tanks. Multiple targets can basically drive tanks crazy in CM, and that constrains effective use of armor quite much. It also opens easy possibilities for gamey tricks.<hr></blockquote>

By this sentence I meant the situation when a tank is hecticly casting lots to engage one of multiple targets concurrently available, but without firing at any.

But there’s also problem when multiple targets pop up and disappear on opposite edges of wide firing zone during one turn. Often the tank spends whole turn just rotating it’s turret from side to side. Tanks with very slow turret are extremely prone to this behavior.

Many people have told how difficult it is for the allied tanks to get flanks shots against German ubertanks, because players with German forces tend to keep their tanks as far back as possible. Well, basically CM forces the slow turreted tanks to be handled that way, because in case you move them in front position, where there is enemy units in more than one direction around, tacAI regularly makes them to expose the weak side turret armor against lurking AT-capable enemies.

Ari

[aka_tom_w]

"The one little thing that needs to be fixed is when you have targeted arty on a previous turn and come

the next turn, you want to re-direct the fire. Currently, you have to click on a spot if you want to see the

time difference it will take to re-direct. The problem is, if you don't like that spot, you're screwed. You

can't go back to your old spot unless you load the turn back up. Let's see this fixed for CMBB."

VERY well put

that is a REALLY annoying problem

"The problem is, if you don't like that spot, you're screwed.!!!"

Thats it in a nutshell then you have to wait 2-3 minutes (if you are lucky) for the redirect.

Good point.

-tom w

[c3k]

Another on my list: mortars firing from upper building levels. I don't mind the lower levels, I can suspend disbelief by thinking they're near a door way or some such, but upper lever fire seems, dare I say it? "Unrealistic."

As well, if you target an enemy unit with a mortar, the mortar will typically expend it's HE rounds, then use its smoke rounds. So, I know when my opponent's mortars are out of ammo. Simply wait until the smoke lands.

Regards.

[Michael Emrys]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

The other big bug that needs to be fixed is the "shooting gallery" bug where men will walk back and forth as they're shot at, constantly changing directions until they're dead.<hr></blockquote>

This and the targetting bug are, I think, examples of where computer behavior and human behavior diverge. A computer is constantly reviewing its options and trying to select the one that at that instant is optimal according to the rules that have been programmed into it. A human gunner, on the other hand, having selected a target, would tend to stick with it until a satisfactory level of destruction or suppression had occurred.

The same problem occurs in the game with units seeking cover. They vacillate for no apparent reason, whereas human beings in the same situation would select a destination and then stick with it unless some overriding factor intervened. Apparently, in the programming of CM, too many factors are rated as "overriding".

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by c3k:

Another on my list: mortars firing from upper building levels. I don't mind the lower levels, I can suspend disbelief by thinking they're near a door way or some such, but upper lever fire seems, dare I say it? "Unrealistic."<hr></blockquote>

You can fire mortars from inside of buildings? I didn't know that.

As for firing them from upper levels, maybe that models them being fired from the roof?

Michael

[CMplayer]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Michael emrys:

You can fire mortars from inside of buildings?

<hr></blockquote>

What else did you think the 'switch roofs off' hotkey was for?

[Juha Ahoniemi]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by CMplayer:

What else did you think the 'switch roofs off' hotkey was for?<hr></blockquote>

Is that standard practice in Swedish army?

[MikeyD]

I've never found a vehicle unable to rotate to a target. They may do other odd things, but not that... unless your talking German halftracks, they don't seem to bother moving if a target ius outside their mg field of fire.

As to smoke, in the real world the Allies loved the American smoke round and the Axis hated it, but in the game the enemy do not flee their posts coughing and gasping. Smoke may blind them but nothing else.