-Havermeyer- Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 There's been an awful outbreak of gamey edge huggers, lately. Think we could add a small probability generator that would cause units hugging the edge (within 1 tile) to be distracted by the off-map fighting and just leave the field of battle (to fight on the unmodeled adjoining battlefield)? I know you could limit your play to "quality" opponents, or set ground rules for the engagement, blah blah blah. I would rather have my opponent screaming bloody murder when his edge hugging Panther took interest in the unseen action and just left the map. Even better would be some off-map team targeting and killing the said offending tank. Bwahahahaha. I'm a gamey map edge hugging offender on occasion, too. Maybe this is my way of seeking help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak40 Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 Consider that if the edges of the map didn't exist, then the attacker could fully outflank the defender. So actually you(as defender) should be thankful that the edges do exist. You may counterpoint that there would be other forces that are defending beyond the edge of the map and that they would prevent such an outflank tactic. But, that is only 100% true if the front line is very static, such as the Sigfried line, where units were dug in next to each other. The reality is that no man's land is such a dynamic part of the battlefield that there is no telling who occupies a square kilometer of land at any one time. The friendly company of troops that you thought was occupying your right flank might have been beaten back, moved forward or further away, thereby leaving your flank open. The best thing that both sides can do in CM is acknowlede that the edge of the map is, IN FACT, part of the map and therefore a playable surface. And they must both recognize that flanking is a REALISTIC and VIABLE tactic. Just because the attacking unit doesn't receive fire from theoretical "offboard units" doesn't make the edge a gamey surface to play on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 Why not take the opportunity to rout his forces off the map. A well placed gun, or arty strike will ruin any edge huggers day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWB Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 Also, I am working up a 'diagonal' scenario which makes edge hugging quite difficult. Will post when it is avaliable for open playtest. WWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 yeah, as the defender you can utilize the edge to your advantage as well. You get a solidly anchored flank anywhere you need one. Also, Infantry advancing near the edge can run off the board when fired upon. So I think it's okay as is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigZergRat Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 I agree that edge hugging benefits the defender more than the attacker. well timed arty or a well placed gun can go a long way to holding the whole flank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 Yeah!! Kingfisher speaks the truth.. I will never do it again honest!!! BTW Kingfish could you e-mail me your password. H P.s. Does that Wine taste good? Can I have a small sip? I warn you about Von Lucke he seems to have a good chance at taking tha wine off you!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Havermeyer- Posted October 4, 2001 Author Share Posted October 4, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pak40: Consider that if the edges of the map didn't exist, then the attacker could fully outflank the defender. So actually you(as defender) should be thankful that the edges do exist.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Oh, I know. It's just gotten so pathetically predictable. It's back to the early days where you had to place some .50 cals/or MG42s far forward to stop the free-wheeling Kubels and marauding jeeps from penetrating your backfield. Every defense and ME I play is now setup to protect against the edge hugger. And yes, I so enjoy routing my opponents troops off the map edge. That is more enjoyable than first shot kills. (really!) So, all in all, it's just getting wearisome. I do like the corner to corner idea, and may try that in a future custom QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thermopylae Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 Attacking edge hugging isn't nearly as bad as some blatant defensive edge hugging...after all, a rifle platoon running through the open on the edge is still a rifle paltoon running through the open...a concrete bunker turned 45 degree sideays from the edge can palt all hell with your day. In RL, the bunker wouldn't be placed like that because it would be to easy to KO from 250 meters to the side of the CM map...but in the game it can dominate an area with minimal theat of retaliation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Holien: P.s. Does that Wine taste good? Can I have a small sip? I warn you about Von Lucke he seems to have a good chance at taking tha wine off you!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hilarious! Von Lucke winning against me. Ha! I'll crush him like I crushed you in......wait a minute, you won that game. Nevermind. P.S. I'll send you the password later on tonight. Did you get my AAR from Treeburst? Did you laugh your ass off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xerxes Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 The whole map is playable. Anyone who cries "gamey" about some using the entire map is in reality, truely being "gamey," it's just a different game they're playing. -marc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted October 4, 2001 Share Posted October 4, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thermopylae: In RL, the bunker wouldn't be placed like that because it would be to easy to KO from 250 meters to the side of the CM map...but in the game it can dominate an area with minimal theat of retaliation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That's why god made 81mm mortar spotters with smoke rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted October 5, 2001 Share Posted October 5, 2001 Here's how you beat edge hugging. Add 2-300 meters to each side of the map. If you want a 1k battlefield make the map 1,400-1,600 meters wide. Place a row of hedges (not bocage or walls) on both sides to mark off the "real" battlefield. No units are allowed to cross these hedges. Inside the hedges leave at least a 20 meter strip of clear terrain the length of the map. Outside the hedge boundary, in foxholes in woods in the corners, you set up elite heavy guns, lots of them, both HE and AT. You would do this in all four corners of the map. You then play with elevations and terrain until you have it where the guns can only see the central 1/3 of the "real map" edge to a depth of no more than 50 meters beyond the border hedge. This will be the trickiest part, I think. You also need to make sure the guns can't see their counterparts directly across the map. These guns are not allowed to be given orders. They fire only at things they spot themselves. At any point in the game if one of these guns fires then you have an "edge hugging" violation that is automatically punished severely. Hehe...Oh, and don't forget to have all the "Enforcer Guns" under command of an HQ with double morale bonus just in case the violating unit(s) fight back. Treeburst155, always at war with gamey play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Harrison Posted October 5, 2001 Share Posted October 5, 2001 hugging aint so bad because (as said above) it has pros and cons for both sides. anyway, how close would we have to be to be considered hugging? i never get THAT close and have never seen the need to. its not as gamey as buying AT guns in a ME though . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russellmz Posted October 5, 2001 Share Posted October 5, 2001 i once built a scenario for fun where a small company tried to fight it out with another small company in the BIGGEST, most VAST map possible. i couldn't find the enemy, i had to eventually surrender, look where the ai was, reload the game and rush all the way the hell to the other side. 10 turns of wandering, wondering where the hell the enemy was. let me tell you, realism has its place, but not there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capitalistdoginchina Posted October 5, 2001 Share Posted October 5, 2001 Map Edge Hugging ? I always thought that it was called a "Flanking Manhoever" Actualy i don't think i have ever seen anyone sending a large force down the map edge - i have seen a couple of vehicles and a platoon or so of men - and i don't have any problems with that. Cheers CDIC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak40 Posted October 5, 2001 Share Posted October 5, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chad Harrison: its not as gamey as buying AT guns in a ME though . . . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> uh, why would this be considered gamey? Just because it's a ME doesn't mean that non-self propelled guns can't be used. If you truly believe that then I beg you to read some books on WWII, 1st person accounts especially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Rock Posted October 5, 2001 Share Posted October 5, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pak40: uh, why would this be considered gamey? Just because it's a ME doesn't mean that non-self propelled guns can't be used. If you truly believe that then I beg you to read some books on WWII, 1st person accounts especially.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It depends on how they are deployed. If the guns were hooked up to trucks in a convoy, no problem. If they are all nicely deployed with optimised kill-zones I'd question whether this was simulating a meeting engagement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted October 5, 2001 Share Posted October 5, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brian Rock: It depends on how they are deployed. If the guns were hooked up to trucks in a convoy, no problem. If they are all nicely deployed with optimised kill-zones I'd question whether this was simulating a meeting engagement.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> People have different ideas of what the term 'meeting engagement' is supposed to mean. It's possible to get into a lengthy argument about it and then realize your talking about different sorts of situations. Personally I think the game would benefit from it being quicker to manhandle light AT guns. Then there could be more action of the sort where you drive them into position during a battle, which definitely did happen. This could add spice to the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Rock Posted October 5, 2001 Share Posted October 5, 2001 A meeting engagement is when contact is made while both sides are moving. I've never encountered another definition. How else do people understand it? :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tools4fools Posted October 5, 2001 Share Posted October 5, 2001 Edge hugging? Treeburst155 got an idea how to get rid off it albeit a time consuming one. How about a few At mines and AP mines placed out there at the edges? Could spoil edge huggers day... On the other hand the edge is part of the battlefield as well and flanking is a very important tactic especially if you have to go up against German tanks with heavy frontal armor. Now if this German heavy comes down the flank...uuuupps, that's gamey, that flank supposedly belongs to the allied tanks that they can get flank shots at the German heavies !!!! Seriously, I see nothing wrong using the map close to the edges. A PBEM opponent used fast flanking tactis sometimes real close to the map edges. He was very sucessful first time but in later battles a Stug or even lone Panzerschreck teams brought those daring flanking manouvers to a sizzling halt. In an other battle I once deployed a 75mm pillbox to cover a far off flank at the map edge. There was nothing happening there, the gun never fired a shot and my opponent never saw the pillbox - the gamey bastard simlpy never attacked there. Wasted points? No way, the pillbox had to guard that flank and it "did its job". Nothing passed there. And the guys in the pillbox had a break for once and could gulp down a few beers instead of getting killed or wounded in action. Agreeing on rules on equippement seems to be standard, so then agree on how to use the map as well. Regards Marcus **** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted October 5, 2001 Share Posted October 5, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brian Rock: A meeting engagement is when contact is made while both sides are moving. I've never encountered another definition. How else do people understand it? :confused:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well you could see it as both sides advancing into a 'no man's land' where they could easily have guns set up in overwatch. Or they could see it as troops travelling more quickly in a fluid situation, and two columns happen to run into each other, in which case guns ought to be hitched and rolling with everybody else. There are other possibilities probably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USTanker Posted October 5, 2001 Share Posted October 5, 2001 [ 10-05-2001: Message edited by: USTanker ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Bellator Posted October 5, 2001 Share Posted October 5, 2001 What's all this abuse about edge hugging? Hugging is something all humans need to do, even hardened CM grogs with beer and pizza on their unwashed fake combat gear. Go on, don't be shy - hug that edge, you'll both feel much better afterwards. Don't try it with the trees though, especially if you still want to post on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juardis Posted October 5, 2001 Share Posted October 5, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by -Havermeyer-: There's been an awful outbreak of gamey edge huggers, lately. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Gamey? Maybe, but not as gamey as those crews you're sending to try to capture my VLs. And that's on the side of the map that you're not edge hugging you gamey bastahd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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