Robert Mayer Posted May 31, 2001 Share Posted May 31, 2001 Wrong, jshandorf, Fair Use does not include scanning in copyrighted material and posting it publicly, simply to show it off. You could quote a small section of the article, certainly, but you are not allowed to take significant parts of a copyrighted work and repost them without the copyright owner's permission. The fact that people do it all the time doesn't change the legality of it. Fair Use applies mostly to reviews and academic usage, and even then the law has gotten much stricter over the past few years. But it's not a question of law, really--it's a question of fairness. One of the big draws of both articles on CM2, in both mags, is the pics. If you post some of them (and there aren't many to go around), that significantly diminishes the value of the article to a prospective purchaser. It also violates Fair Use as you've reprinted a very significant part of the article without permission. If anyone wants to see the shots they have two viable options--wait until BTS posts them, which won't be long really, or buy a magazine, and read the articles. You do want to read the articles, don't you? I'm frequently struck by the attitude on the web that everything should be free, and that any info on a topic of interest is by right and natural law the collective property of fans. Information, despite the cliche, has never been free, and good information always costs someone something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted May 31, 2001 Share Posted May 31, 2001 You're right, Robert. Dima, shut the hell up, we are being serious. God I hope you're not. jshandorf, you have good points, and BTS can release the shots if they want, but some random ninny cannot, and a public message board is not "private use". I'm sure if someone posted a description of the pictures or a synopsis of the article, nobody would be mad, but Robert has a good point about (besides law) the issue of fairness. They work hard for their bread, why try to snatch it out of their mouths with an ill-founded principle? Buy the mag or wait, those are your options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dima Posted May 31, 2001 Share Posted May 31, 2001 Panzer Leader, you shut the hell up ! I am expressing my opinion, deal with it. Lock it up ! [ 05-31-2001: Message edited by: dima ] [ 05-31-2001: Message edited by: dima ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juardis Posted May 31, 2001 Share Posted May 31, 2001 I got an idea dima, and mind you, it's just an idea. If you're serious about what you said about BTS, perhaps you shouldn't use their forum since they obviously don't care about you, me, or anyone else. If you're not serious, smileys work wonders. For example, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dima Posted May 31, 2001 Share Posted May 31, 2001 Every joke truth in it The bottom line is - with the success of CM BTS became spoiled ! They are 2-man team but everyone had to start small, even Bill Gates. Consider this - Everyone who has nVidia cards and Windows 2000 has a problem with CM unless they turn-on FSAA. They've been blaming nVidia drivers to have a bug in it. Since then, 15+ new drivers for nVidia were released - the bug is still there. When asked further info - no answer is given. "Try this, try that, I don't know, I can't reproduce it" And now CM2. How nice it is to visit this board every day just to find out that some SimHQ has posted preview of it. While here they are busy managing new Peng threads. Why so much silence here ? Without people here BTS will be nothing ! Unless they plan to release CM2 for X-Box and PS2 first. Actually I wouldn't be surprised now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted May 31, 2001 Share Posted May 31, 2001 Whoah there, bra! Hold on a minute, let's not go dragging the Peng Thread into this. Now you are really overstepping your bounds. Insulting a major publishing periodical and the company who gave us the best wargame of all time is one thing, but you DARE to bring Peng into your ranting?!?! Let me guess, it sucks up the bandwidth? Or, oh, it takes all BTS' time to "manage it". I see. I agree that I was slightly shocked, and had a moment of "feeling left out" when the SimHQ article appeared. But Steve gave us ample warning that the preview in the mags was coming. He has a lot to manage (besides Peng that is) and on perceived slip up is not enough to damn a whole company, is it? Relax dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaffertape Posted May 31, 2001 Share Posted May 31, 2001 Robert Mayer: Slightly off topic, but I think your magazine is excellent. I really enjoyed last month's Aliens vs Predator II article - particularly the tounge-in-cheek movie references. I'm glad BTS chose your magazine to showcase new CMII info. GAFF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted May 31, 2001 Share Posted May 31, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dima: jshandorf is absolutely right !<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually, everything he said is completely wrong. Robert and PL are correct. Posting pics in a high traffic forum like this is not for "personal and private use". CGW does indeed own the copywrite for screenshots printed in it's mag. I could go on. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And all this *hush* about CM2 on this board from BTS is one more proof - they don't give a damn about us!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> [sarcasm] Definitly. All those patches they made for CM... all those months they worked on TCP/IP... all the discussions they have had with us on this board about the game... Yeah, they don't give a damn. Thanks for showing us the light dima. We should have known all along. [/sarcasm] [ 05-31-2001: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted May 31, 2001 Share Posted May 31, 2001 Just some comments here... Robert is correct with his two major points: 1. The "mature" gaming magazines do not pander to advertisers the way they are often accused of doing. Sometimes a magazine really drops the ball on a review, but that is either a matter of opinion or a poor choice of who should do the review. We released a "hardcore" wargame a while ago that was knocked pretty hard (webzine, not big mag) because they got someone who was more of a RTS fan to review it. Obviously it is important to match the reviewer with the target market when the game is clearly aimed at a specific niche. 2. Scanning images from a magazine is absolutely a copyright violation. You can only do this with the owner's permission. Period. The laws are a little more liberal when it comes to historical documentation, but I don't think we can call posting stuff here in that light Now... the question of why we aren't posting stuff to you guys here first directly... We will, and we will do so in great quantities. But it is too early for that. We don't have the time or the materials to produce an endless stream of information for you guys. And that is what will be expected of us once we start posting stuff. Trust me. We have a weeeeeeeeee bit of experience with customer expectations prior to a release The magazines are a VERY important tool for us to spread the word about Combat Mission. Hugely important, in fact. But advertising in them is not only impractical (too expensive), but is not really all that effective for our type of game. Ads only work when they are repeated over and over again in as many places as possible, but we simply don't have the funds for that. What really DOES work are articles, reviews, tips, etc. How many of you that play Combat Mission found out about the game because of one of these tidbits from an online or tradition print magazine? Oh... I would just guess that it is probably around 50% or more (most likely more). So tell me... if we constantly upstage these folks what is their incentive to cover our products? Life is all about give and take. CGM and CGW are giving something to us and their readers. The LEAST we can do is give them a little bit of help having something to say/show that isn't being pounded out here on a daily basis. It is in the best interests of everybody to get the word out, and we feel that if we try and monopolize the information we are only hurting that all important goal. Folks, remember that the game is still many months away. You will get plenty of "scoops" long before anybody else. At some point (later) we will be posting stuff on an almost daily basis. I can also assure you that nobody is going to be dennied access to the CM2 demo for even a second. But just this once, we wanted to return the favor to a couple of major reasons why CM1 was so successfull. SimHQ, CGW, CGM/CGO, and a few others were all 110% behind Combat Mission 1. The sum of this coverage absolutely launched Combat Mission into the spotlight instead of leaving it to languish in niche obscurity. Now if that doesn't count for something, I don't know what does. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cos Posted May 31, 2001 Share Posted May 31, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dima: Every joke truth in it The bottom line is - with the success of CM BTS became spoiled ! They are 2-man team but everyone had to start small, even Bill Gates.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Right, but Emperor Bill was designing operating systems not a game <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Consider this - Everyone who has nVidia cards and Windows 2000 has a problem with CM unless they turn-on FSAA. They've been blaming nVidia drivers to have a bug in it. Since then, 15+ new drivers for nVidia were released - the bug is still there. When asked further info - no answer is given. "Try this, try that, I don't know, I can't reproduce it"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Not to start the Windows/Linux/Mac war here, but it is a Win based program and there are alot of things in Win that can act up with programs and hardware. Always has been the case (BTW I have a PC with Win on it). <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And now CM2. How nice it is to visit this board every day just to find out that some SimHQ has posted preview of it. While here they are busy managing new Peng threads.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> OK, BTS needs to reach out to new people to continue to survive/grow. So they have to outside sources to spread the word. We all know they're working on it. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Why so much silence here ? Without people here BTS will be nothing !<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Becuase they would spend their time answering questions about everything. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Unless they plan to release CM2 for X-Box and PS2 first. Actually I wouldn't be surprised now.[/qb]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Doubt it, BTS would have released CMBO for the PS2 right now to bring in all the money you can get. Why wait. [ 05-31-2001: Message edited by: Cos ] [ 06-01-2001: Message edited by: Cos ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted May 31, 2001 Share Posted May 31, 2001 Dima wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And all this *hush* about CM2 on this board from BTS is one more proof - they don't give a damn about us! They are just another (soon to be) corporation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Oh for Pete's sake. Could it possibly be that since there are only 4 of us that we are working our tails off making the game. Nah... that COULDN'T POSSIBLY be the reason. It makes too much sense. Again folks.... the game isn't due out for months. Have I misunderstood what it is you are really interested in? I've been assuming it is a finished product of superior quality that you can actually play on your home computer. But perhaps what people really want is for us to spend all our time talking about something instead of actually working on it? If I spend 3 hours a day here on this forum, that is 3 hours a day I am not working on the game. This is reality. Why some of you have the patience of a gnat is not my problem. What is my problem is making sure the game gets done right and done as soon as possible. All other concerns are secondary. Experience has shown us that the more we talk about the game the more people demand of us to tell them something more. It is a vicious cycle that is inevitable, but when started too soon it becomes a major distraction. We simply don't have much more to say now than we have been saying for the past 6 months. In fact, the articles we have participated in so far really don't say much more than we have said on this forum, so long time fans here won't find much of interest in them anyway. And the screenshots contained will be posted very shortly, so I fail to see what the problem is. We didn't disappoint you the first time, so there is no basis to think we will disappoint this time. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrold Posted May 31, 2001 Share Posted May 31, 2001 BTS becoming just another corporation? All computer magazines influenced primarily by the amount of advertisments purchased? We are witnessing the result of too much belief in conspiracy theories, unfounded cynicism, and frankly the all to common dislike of successful people and companies. Instead of being congratulatory of BTS's success, it is assumed that someone else must have been screwed in order for them to get ahead. This sort of messed up thinking is way too prevalent and it should be fought wherever it raises it's ugly head. BTS has created wealth from nothing but their own talent. A great number of people have recognized the value of their product and exchanged money for it. This money has allowed them to expand, create new jobs presumably with some sort of salary, and then be able to spend their time producing CM2 instead of digging ditches to earn food and beer money. If they choose to spend some of their own money on new cars, big houses, or if Madmatt wants gold caps for his teeth and the finest imported head wax that is their own business! How is it not a good thing if Steve and Charles get as freakin' rich as Bill Gates? Since they are not coming to my house, sticking a gun in my face, and demanding money to play their game. It is the natural result of putting out a quality product that is popular. They are not out with their hands out looking for a government grant either. Everyone should be ecstatic since it means we will be able to have access to future games in the genre of our interest. And if you are not going to pay their bills if CM2 bombs...quitcherbeefin! I obviously have no problem with a magazine taking ads for products that they review because if the reviews are found to be influenced wrongly, word will get out that the games in no way match the mag's opinion. The main computer magazine I am familiar enough with to endorse is CGW and I buy it because I trust their reviews. My only complaint would be the perhaps too opimistic previews but that is a pervasive issue with both websites and magazines. I get the feeling that the people who complain the loudest have the least experience with going out in the real world and earning the money they need to eat and pay their bills. To keep this more on-topic, I am looking forward to reading the article and seeing the screenshots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dima Posted May 31, 2001 Share Posted May 31, 2001 Steve, It is a matter of simple respect and loyalty. If I came to the board that day and saw a post from ONE OF YOU GUYS pointing us to go check SimHQ - I'd be very pleased. If I came here yesterday and found a post (AGAIN) from one of YOU mentioning CGM and CM2 preview in it, all these flames wouldn't even start. We understand what and why you are giving previews in CGM, but we don't understand your attitude towards us ! If you are so busy, why are you spending time replying to this thread ? In time it took you to do it today you would be able to post 10+ screenshots and god knows how many other usefull stuff on CM2. But you choose to keep arguing instead... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipanderson Posted May 31, 2001 Share Posted May 31, 2001 Hi, I agree with Steve. I only play CM and Steel Beasts and have found the more mature games magazines do give me fair warning that 99% of computer wargames are not for me. I would just add that a lot of CMs loyal fans are overseas, like me in the UK, and it is not as easy as Robert suggests to get the mags in the UK. I know I have tried. The only reasonable solution is for BTS to move to the UK. Surrey is a lovely place with lots of common land and woods. I could find you all fabulous properties with swimming pools, tennis courts….. All the best, Kip. PS. You will not get as much snow in the winters. Ever since watching Dreaming of a White Christmas forty years ago I have wanted to live in New England. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cos Posted May 31, 2001 Share Posted May 31, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: We didn't disappoint you the first time, so there is no basis to think we will disappoint this time. Steve[/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I believe you won't. OTR and AS conviced me you guys know what you were/are doing. Made buying CMBO a no brainer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted May 31, 2001 Share Posted May 31, 2001 Dima, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>f I came here yesterday and found a post (AGAIN) from one of YOU mentioning CGM and CM2 preview in it, all these flames wouldn't even start.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Define "all these flames"? I see pretty much just you flaming. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>We understand what and why you are giving previews in CGM, but we don't understand your attitude towards us !<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> As you see it, I don't either. Your narrow view of the world is impossible for me to comprehend. We don't spend our time here posting therefore we are Evil and we have sold out. Good thinking there. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If you are so busy, why are you spending time replying to this thread ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> See, I can't win. If I don't respond we are being aloof and not caring. If I take the time to respond and outline our reasoning, we are still not caring. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In time it took you to do it today you would be able to post 10+ screenshots and god knows how many other usefull stuff on CM2. But you choose to keep arguing instead... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No, I choose to explain why we are doing what we are doing. If you call having a logical, rational plan an "argument" so be it. Plus, we don't have 10+ screenshots to post. We have about 4 total, and they will be posted soon enough. Is it just me, or does anybody else feel that I am in a no-win situation unless we do nothing but pander to every single whim of anybody who voices an opinion here? Just another reminder of why I will never have children Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted May 31, 2001 Share Posted May 31, 2001 Hi Kip, Lived in England for a while and, while I did enjoy it, I like living in the newer England <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I would just add that a lot of CMs loyal fans are overseas, like me in the UK, and it is not as easy as Robert suggests to get the mags in the UK. I know I have tried.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Righto. Decent number are not US, but it is still a minority of our customers. We are working on that though Unfortunately, our main supporting mag in Europe is in the process of being aquired so we haven't heard a peep out of them. Again... never fear. We will post the screenshots very soon. It's not like we don't want to have people informed... Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jshandorf Posted May 31, 2001 Share Posted May 31, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Just another reminder of why I will never have children Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That and the whole finding a woman that loves wargaming and is willing to procreate with a computer geek really puts a damper on the whole thing... BTW here is an interesting point on this whole Copywrite thing... An painter can take photograph, reproduce the work, and then display it for the public without needing permission from anyone. Period. It's been done, has been done time and time again. Scanning a screen shot and posting it is not a copyright violation. Especially if it is in a public forum where you are not gaining ANY financial benefit. For example: If I created a CD mix of my favorite music and then proceeded to play it at the night club I DJed at I would be commiting NO copywrite violation. The same applies here. A friend owns the original article and all he wants to do is take single picture out of it and show it to his friends. Somehow people here are taking the magical leap from that to reposting the article in it's entirety. One more thing... If the only reason people are open up your magazine is for the pretty pictures you put in it, then I am afraid it lacks the basic good writing content that people should be reading your magazine for in the first place. Thus I would think you would have more serious things to worry about then a few screenshots but then again if that's all you got... Jeff [ 05-31-2001: Message edited by: jshandorf ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMcGuire Posted May 31, 2001 Share Posted May 31, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jshandorf: Scanning a screen shot and posting it is not a copyright violation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> How would you "scan a screenshot", exactly? Maybe hold the scanner up to the monitor? Here's an idea: go buy the magazine, scan the pictures, and post them. We know Robert is a CM junkie, so we can assume the magazine will then sue you. I'm sure the rest of us will enjoy seeing who's right. Heck, I'll even buy the magazine for you, if Robert agrees to hold me harmless. Come on, put your money where your mouth is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jshandorf Posted May 31, 2001 Share Posted May 31, 2001 Double post. Arg! Jeff [ 05-31-2001: Message edited by: jshandorf ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conscript Bagger Posted May 31, 2001 Share Posted May 31, 2001 "Respect and loyalty" are earned, not owed. All I did was send BTS $45 for the product of their work; how does that entitle me to anything more than the simple civility everyone deserves on this board? A certain amount of CM2 advance information, sneak peeks, Q&A, and other interaction with the fans is nice and it makes good business sense - and BTS has done some and promised more. But I'm under no illusion that they owe it to me simply because I exist. Besides, I'd bet most people here have already decided whether they're interested in buying CM2 or not, so it makes sense that the developers' "marketing efforts" would be focused elsewhere - particularly at this stage where the goal seems to be simply getting the early word out. [edit] Oh, and Jeff, I think the relevant copyright concept is not that anyone stands to gain financially or otherwise by posting the screenshot, but that the magazine(s) would potentially lose sales. [ 05-31-2001: Message edited by: Offwhite ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren J Pierson Posted May 31, 2001 Share Posted May 31, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: Is it just me, or does anybody else feel that I am in a no-win situation unless we do nothing but pander to every single whim of anybody who voices an opinion here? Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Steve, Don't let it get to you. From all of my years working customer service and then in the classroom, I learned that there will always be one or two people who won't be happy ever, even if you do everything that they ask for. Just keep doing what you need to do and in the end you will produce another great game and the vast majority of the customers will love it. (Sure, we will beg for tweaks but we will still love it. ) I for one lurk here everyday and still love this board for its honesty, professionalism, and information. Sure, sometimes someone acts like an idiot, but most of the people are of a very high calibre. Don't let 'em get to you. Darren (Now please go back to coding, thank you very much.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jshandorf Posted May 31, 2001 Share Posted May 31, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JMcGuire: How would you "scan a screenshot", exactly? Maybe hold the scanner up to the monitor? Here's an idea: go buy the magazine, scan the pictures, and post them. We know Robert is a CM junkie, so we can assume the magazine will then sue you. I'm sure the rest of us will enjoy seeing who's right. Heck, I'll even buy the magazine for you, if Robert agrees to hold me harmless. Come on, put your money where your mouth is...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sure.. Okay. But since CGW doesn't actually own the screen shot and BTS does it is kind of moot. But hell if I see the magazine I will post them if and when I get around to it. I just have to find someone with a scanner. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew H. Posted May 31, 2001 Share Posted May 31, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jshandorf: BTW here is an interesting point on this whole Copywrite thing... An painter can take photograph, reproduce the work, and then display it for the public without needing permission from anyone. Period. It's been done, has been done time and time again. Scanning a screen shot and posting it is not a copyright violation. Especially if it is in a public forum where you are not gaining ANY financial benefit. For example: If I created a CD mix of my favorite music and then proceeded to play it at the night club I DJed at I would be commiting NO copywrite violation. The same applies here. A friend owns the original article and all he wants to do is take single picture out of it and show it to his friends. Somehow people here are taking the magical leap from that to reposting the article in it's entirety. Jeff [ 05-31-2001: Message edited by: jshandorf ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> A painter can sell a picture of a photograph because it is not a *copy* of the photograph. A painter adds stuff (i.e., art)to a photo when he paints. A photographer, on the other hand, cannot take a photo of a painting (assuming that the painting is still copyrighted), make the photo into posters, and sell it. You can play your own CD mix in a club you DJ at because the club belongs to ASCAP or the other ASCAP-like organization. These organizations pay copyright-holders for the public use of the copyrighted material, the same way that radio stations do. If you opened your own club, didn't join one of these organizations, and played CDs in public without permission, you would be violating copyright. In any event, this forum is not "public"; it belongs to BTS and they have the right to prevent people from posting stuff they don't want people to post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted May 31, 2001 Share Posted May 31, 2001 Jeff: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>That and the whole finding a woman that loves wargaming and is willing to procreate with a computer geek really puts a damper on the whole thing...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Which is why when I found such a woman, who also doesn't mind camping in a glorified tent at -28 deg F, I wasn't dumb enough to pass up the chance of getting hitched <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Sure.. Okay. But since CGW doesn't actually own the screen shot and BTS does it is kind of moot.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No it is not moot. We explicitely gave CGW permission to use our copyrighted information. Because we gave them permission for its use that doesn't mean that everybody is entitled to it. Otherwise, you would be able to record music off the radio, or a movie off of cable, and play it at a public function without violiating copyright. Sorry, no go. Offwhite: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"Respect and loyalty" are earned, not owed. All I did was send BTS $45 for the product of their work; how does that entitle me to anything more than the simple civility everyone deserves on this board? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well said. If we screw up dealing with you folks, then we won't get your $45. If we do a good enough job, then we will. Obviously, we will continue to do things to keep you folks happy. It is not only in our best interests, but we actually WANT to do this. But that doesn't mean there aren't any parameters other than "give customer whatever is asked for". Darren: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Don't let it get to you. From all of my years working customer service and then in the classroom, I learned that there will always be one or two people who won't be happy ever, even if you do everything that they ask for.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Not to worry. We learned that lesson a long time ago No sleep will be lost if one or two people can't be made happy. If we have hundreds or thousands of people yapping at us, then we must have screwed up big time. Then much sleep will be lost Steve [ 05-31-2001: Message edited by: Big Time Software ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts