lcm1947 Posted April 13, 2001 Share Posted April 13, 2001 When should a person surrender in a PHEM game. I've read that people hate it when his opponent just ups and quits a game so I figure the same would apply to an opponent just surrendering. But there has to be a point where it's not even fun for the individual winning to continue a game that is really over. Example: The winner has 4 tanks, 4 halftracks a dozens men or so and your opponent is down to 25 effective troops no vehicles of any kind nor weapons other then the small arms the men have. The game is medium size, mod trees ( which in at least this game means very open terrain ) a small village setting. Daytime, no fog or rain, very clear in other words. What's the opinion on when you just call it quits? I would love to hear as many opioions as possible because this will be what I do in games and you might be my opponent one of these days? :confused: :confused: PS: I've got to head for work right now but will be dying to get back home to look at the replys this evening so any comments made to me won't be answered until later towards 6pm or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted April 13, 2001 Share Posted April 13, 2001 I usually play until I can no longer inflict damage (eg until all of my troops are broken or panicked). Some of my opponents have a sadistic streak and prefer to play to the bitter end, and I comply in those cases Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babra Posted April 13, 2001 Share Posted April 13, 2001 Some people will be annoyed if you run or give up (and why give up if you can run?). There isn't anything you can do about that except not play them any more. In the search for opponents you enjoy to play it is inevitable you will come across those who view the game differently. That doesn't make them wrong; it just means game enjoyment will suffer when you play them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigAlMoho Posted April 13, 2001 Share Posted April 13, 2001 Hello, Technically speaking, it would be better to prepare for cease fire while exiting your troops off your own map edge rather than give up the victory points for surrendering... Although, I have yet to see anyone do this... Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiwiJoe Posted April 13, 2001 Share Posted April 13, 2001 When u no longer think its at all possable to get a draw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodyBucket Posted April 13, 2001 Share Posted April 13, 2001 From the Code of Conduct- ARTICLE II "I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist." At this point our Drill Instructor would say, "And the only time you don't have the means to resist is when you're dead!" In the game, however, I think it is appropriate to surrender when you think that further resistance is futile. Since there are no humanitarian (I don't identify with the game that closely!) considerations, when someone surrenders to me I take it as a compliment to his perception of my ability, but I am sometimes suprised at what must look like a hopeless situation from the other side. I have had opponents surrender when I was truly worried about my own situation. Since the game gives you the option to surrender at any time, I think it is ethical to use that option at any time unless there is an agreement otherwise in advance. I would, however, make note of someone who surrenders at the first hint that things are not going thier way, and avoid that situation in the future. A surrender is certainly more satisfactory than a game terminated without resolution or response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted April 13, 2001 Share Posted April 13, 2001 My favorite quote about this comes from the Emperor Napoleon at the Battle of Aspern-Essling. To Berthier he said, "Before yielding victory to the enemy, wait until he wrests it from you." Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juju Posted April 13, 2001 Share Posted April 13, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Babra: Some people will be annoyed if you run or give up <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I don't think WWII commanders would be very annoyed if their opponent just gave up. They'd probably praise God! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mlapanzer Posted April 13, 2001 Share Posted April 13, 2001 A win is a win is a win. I'll take it anyway I can get it. I have surrendered and been surrendered to. I have no problem with it but do prefer for the other guy to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfcub Posted April 13, 2001 Share Posted April 13, 2001 i NEVER ever ever give up i hold until the last man and inflict as many casulties as pos ,i would rather be uterly destroyed in a PBEM game that surrender :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFCElvis Posted April 13, 2001 Share Posted April 13, 2001 Like you said..when it is no longer fun for either side to continue...You are wasting their time and yours to continue. The point at which I surrender is when my troops are VERY badly beaten up and I have confirmed knowledge of the strenght of my enemy. In your example I would surrender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-=reef=- Posted April 13, 2001 Share Posted April 13, 2001 I thought the game auto surrendered at 25% morale in 1.12. usually by the time you are this low your force is spent anyway. Personally i love for my enemies to surrender so i can get further up the ladder i play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSpkr Posted April 13, 2001 Share Posted April 13, 2001 Only surrender when they pry your weeapon from your cold dead hand. MrSpkr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spanish Bombs Posted April 13, 2001 Share Posted April 13, 2001 For whatever its worth, I think that the "fun factor" and the "learning factor" are key for deciding when to raise the white flag. If the game is early on, and, even though my armor is toast and my arty spotter was wiped out, well, I might just keep going because a) I might pick up some experience/knowledge by playing the underdog and b)It might still be entertaining for me to play out the string, and certainly more so for the opponent. On the other hand, in your situation when things are hopeless and the other guy probably considers it to be unchallenging mopping up, then I'm all for cutting your losses and getting on to another game in the search for redemption... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted April 13, 2001 Share Posted April 13, 2001 First, for the adults in the crowd, there are reasons outside of the game for which one might surrender. The wife leaves you with three kids to raise, one of them is run over by a car and will be in the hospital for three months, your house is being repossessed, you've been fired from your job or arrested for tax evasion, or you've just won the Big Game lotto and decided to move to Montego Bay. I don't see where someone elses desire for me to provide them with a movie periodically has any impact upon my decision to surrender. At least until I decide to run for Mayor of Chicago when I might need their vote. Within the game itself. While it is admittedly a moment of decision relative to ones own perspective, generally I'd say that upon reaching the point within the game that it becomes apparent to oneself that further moves/turns will not have any impact upon the varying levels of victory/loss, i.e., total, major, tactical, etc., then that would be a pretty good point to end it. The problem, if there is one. Is that CM does not provide a "withdrawal" mechanism. Only "surrender", which does not seem to differentiate any particular levels of loss, just spits out a total loss regardless, and therefore leaves me wondering what was the point exactly of this mechanism which could be accomplished via an email, or a "ceasefire" process which must either be negotiated again via email, or left as a surprise of some sort, which as a surprise, doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Much more preferable to have an actual system which defines parameters and requirements for an end game outside of all or nothing, by allowing for what would be the most historically and realistically expected outcome to a small scale battle/firefight, a "withdrawal". I do hope this makes it into CM2. I further would hope, that it is a little more sophisticated than just, a withdrawal button or CTL-W where, it comes with requirements and parameters, so as not to be so "automatic" in nature, but actually requires some skill to accomplish. [ 04-13-2001: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfred Posted April 13, 2001 Share Posted April 13, 2001 Never surrender!!!!! Fight till the AI kicks you of the map. The best learning experience comes when you are trying to fight your opponent with a handfull off bloodied body parts, also the FOW shadows your opponents real condition. There is always a chance your opponent will get cocky and overextend his forces and turn the situation around, now that is a sweet feeling. The last turn always reveals the truth, you have to be there !!! [ 04-13-2001: Message edited by: mfred ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Wildman Posted April 13, 2001 Share Posted April 13, 2001 Guess I will disagree with pretty much everyone here. Mostly because in my mind I view the Surrender button as a real-life Withdrawal button. I was in a PBEM, where after losing my armor and duking it out in the town I was obviously going to lose. I had two fairly health platoons, but the houses I held were being systematically destroyed by tank fire, I couldn't move forward under smoke, because I had no more arty. So it was obvious that I couldn't accomplish my mission. I hit the Surrender button, but in my mind I ordered a withdraw and left one or two units in place while I conserved two platoons to fight another day. Just my perspective. Sure suprised my opponent, he said he thought the had more fight, and they did but to what objective? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrcobbler Posted April 13, 2001 Share Posted April 13, 2001 I recently learned a valuable lesson about surrender. The QB scenario was heavy snow in the pine forested mountains, a 'slogfest' at best. Getting my butt kicked the whole time, it was getting less and less interesting and fun. My Germans(me?) knew little about snow, and died all over the place. Thinking about surrender, to move to a more exciting QB. However, in the last three turns my Hetzer (useless and stuck the whole game) managed to get around the mountains finally, and cleaned out an M4, TD, and AC, and suddenly my ragtag remains of troops are kicking some butt themselves! I may still have lost too much to win overall but can see the advantage to sticking it out. Lesson learned. Shoeman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSpkr Posted April 13, 2001 Share Posted April 13, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bruno Weiss: First, for the adults in the crowd, there are reasons outside of the game for which one might surrender. The wife leaves you with three kids to raise, one of them is run over by a car and will be in the hospital for three months, your house is being repossessed, you've been fired from your job or arrested for tax evasion, or you've just won the Big Game lotto and decided to move to Montego Bay.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ummmmmm . . . If you won the Big Game Lotto and were moving to Montego Bay, wouldn't that give you MORE time for gaming? I mean you wouldn't be working (at least I wouldn't) and you CERTAINLY wouldn't pack and move your own stuff (assuming you kept any of it anyway! MrSpkr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted April 13, 2001 Share Posted April 13, 2001 Ah, very shrewed MrSpkr, but presuming one was so lucky as to spend your remaining years at the Hedonism meca of Montego Bay, having as you say, left all your possessions behind (including ones PC?), then possibly, possibly I say, one might find some diversions if not permanently, certainly temporarily, to your ongoing game with some poor soul anxiously awaiting the next exciting moment in their life upon the receipt of your turn. Then too, even having left all you own behind, there is still the small matters of property purchasing, or leasing, viewing of such properties, closings, passports, travel, children if any, and arranging for the venture in general. It was a nicer way of telling the kiddies in the crowd, there are a few things in life for those with a life, that might, might I say, interfere with an ongoing CM game and therefore result in the offer of a surrender rather than keeping an opponent in baited suspense for weeks or months awaiting that exciting moment, when their life was made meaningful again by the receipt of that next movie. [ 04-13-2001: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSpkr Posted April 13, 2001 Share Posted April 13, 2001 Oh yeah - throw that in my face! As for me, I think I would grab a couple of select prized possessions (CM being one of them - and my PC (until I could get a new one from Falcon NW) and move to a hotel whilst my WIFE and, to a lesser extent, my kids, decided where we would live, etc. I have four kids and have learned LONG ago that I am not going to win arguments like that, so why worry about them? MrSpkr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted April 13, 2001 Share Posted April 13, 2001 Hehe, yeah I'd liken it to Chevy Chase's European Vacation. I can imagine meself rushing off to Montego Bay dragging the dog, kid, wife, fish tank, lizard tank, and the endless variety of morning pills from the doctor (which I'm sure he has me take just so I don't forget my age). Well what the hell, one can dream anyway. They ain't found a way to spy on dreams yet. [ 04-13-2001: Message edited by: Bruno Weiss ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcm1947 Posted April 13, 2001 Author Share Posted April 13, 2001 I would like to thank all of those that replied to this question. After reading all of them two times and putting much thought into it I have decided my course of action will be to FIGHT! :mad: I will however email my opponent and ask what he thinks. If he would rather continue just so he can beat me bloodly then that's what we will do if on the other hand he says that he'd appreciate it if I did surrender then I will do that, as I don't have a prayer, to draw, hurt him, and certainly not win. I guess it all boils down to who you play, at least according to the different views I recieved. Again, thank all for your views. PS: If only I had the A-Bomb right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Codfather Posted April 14, 2001 Share Posted April 14, 2001 The other way you can do it to prepare for a cease-fire. I would never surrender just because my opponent wanted me to. If he didn't want to fight it out, then he could call for a cease-fire too, which means you won't lose as many points as if you surrendered... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmaker Posted April 14, 2001 Share Posted April 14, 2001 In general, when I have no "combat units" left to make any resistance. I.e.tanks/SPWs/even remnants of any type of squads. If all I have left are cowering crewmen from tanks/ATGs then it's over. My only exception to this is when playing Waffen-SS formations. To the death. Maybe the other exception should be the Volksturm? Have them surrender in droves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.jpg.525c3074f15ffbc476077149c8967218.thumb.jpg.c5f92e9896850f51eb67f42dae2c0450.jpg)
Recommended Posts