Five year old playing CM-parental imput wanted

[Warren Peace]

My five year old has taken to playing CM. He likes to do quick battles and pick his own equipement. (Ben is extremely bright, reads at about a third grade level, increabible with puzzles, plays a decent game of chess.) Today when i dropped him off at kindergarten, he noticed a box that said "Waffles". Trying to be cute he says to me "look Dad, it says Waffen-SS". Unfortunately, right next to me was an Isreali Woman and her son. I'm not sure she noticed, but i think it would make me uncomfortable to hear a five year old mention the Waffen-SS in any context.

I quickly told Ben, no Combat Mission talk outside of the house.

Q. Is five too young to be playing CM? Although it is a strategy game with no blood, perhaps its historical nature requires a more mature attitude. Funny thing was that when he was into Master's of Orion 2, I wasn't bothered at all.

Parental comments appreciated

[tailz]

I think a simple explanation of what 'bad men' the SS were might be in order. (no sense in trying to differntiate between Waffen and Gestapo) Assuming you monitor his play, it might be best to simply not allow him to use/go against SS forces. The last thing you want is to start having hobbies he's not allowed to talk about.

I have an extensive movie collection... my son has watched and likes all my war movies... BUT... he is never allowed to watch them without me. When he is with me when I play my various sims, I always play the Allied side... until he's old enough to completely understand the complexities of the war, I don't want to confuse the general issue of 'good guys' and 'bad guys'.

(And this thread shouldn't devolve into a flamefest about historical reality and 'right and wrong'. Young minds are very impressionable and must be handled with extreme care. As far as general parameters go, the Axis were the bad guys and the Allies were the good guys. I have no doubt that had the Axis won, we'd be teaching the heroic values of the SS in defeating the decaying/corrupt/capitalist empires of the west.)

[Jeff Heidman]

Wow, pretty precocious child.

I would never discourage my child from any intellectual pursuit, period.

That being said, part of life is learning how and where to use context to moderate what you say and how you say it.

If the kid is bright enought to play CM, he is probably bright enough to start understanding these kinds of issues. However, it is not unlikely that while he is bright enough to play what is, to him, an abstract game, it is entirely likely that he does not have the maturity to understand that it represents a not very pleasant reality.

So, where does that leave us? I'm not sure. I think you have probably stumbled upon a dilemna that many parents run into a few years later with violence in video games. How do you encourage the intellectual part of the game while at the same time teaching that what this game represents is all to real?

If you figure that one out, let me know. I have a 5-month old, so I imagine I will be wanting to know!

Jeff Heidman

[Los]

I have a three year old son. When designing/testing the Villers-Bocage operation he enjoyed sitting on my lap and watching WIttman go to town. My wife did take a fairly dim view of such activities though in our house it's hard to escape some military influence. (He can identify most WW2 aircraft by name already)

In my experience I've found that the occasional exposure is no problem at all. But if he plays too much it is inevitable that this will spill over to school. After all when you are dong something cool don't you want to talk about it with freinds? Without much context, others, (namely teachers and parents) given this current climate about such matters, would no doubt call you on the carpet if you sons starts talking about German tanks and Waffen SS all the time at school. (Mine was gong on about German bunkers for months after we visited Normandy when he was one and a half.) It's pretty much moving to a zero tolerance atmosphere in many places. (This isn't the time or place to go into all the BS as to why this is has happened.) NOTE that nothing I say above means that he's any worse for wear as a kid. If you're a good parent and he's a smart kid, he can do perfectly fine with exposure to levels of violence, cartoon or game, after all, everyone up to about ten years ago was raised on a steady diet of WW2 play, cowboys and Indians, cops and robbers, three stooges and Bugs Bunny and the overwhelming vast majority are none the worse for wear. But those that run our eductation system take a dim view to that stuff nowadays (Not saying it's bad)

A few months ago my wife found my 2d/3rd grade drawing pad. It's thirty pages of lots of carnage, very detailed drawings of firebombing of Tokyo, Mount Surabaci, Submarine battles, Pirate battles, Little Big Horn what not, all the NORMAL stuff boys used to play at and draw pictures of 30 years ago. If I was a kid and did that today they'd probably take me away and lobotomize me.

Anyway, just one Dad's opinion. Just talk to the boy and expoain what's cool at home vs school. Mine is grasping it. Give him as much detail and reason as he can understand. But BTW, re: SS-Germans-Nazis, to an uniformed adult listening to a five year old, I wouldn't be suprised if the teachers at school probably lump them all in the same category. Even if he's already a PHD quality debater, they ain't gonna wanna hear it from him.

Los

[This message has been edited by Los (edited 09-06-2000).]

[SS_PanzerLeader]

My son plays CM too (he's 6). I simply let him no that there would be alot of people upset if he ran around pretending to be an SS soldier and briefly explained why in a context he was able to understand.

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SS_PanzerLeader.......out

[Abbott]

Well, I remember drawing pictures of tanks, infantry and planes constantly from first grade on. In school and out of school. My father was a WWII veteran and I grew up with plastic figures (Airfix, Marx and Atlantic) and the generic green guys . Reading history, drawing and painting history and playing at history.

The Waffen-SS seems to me to be a very touchy subject, much more so then is needed. Many people young and old alike could be better-educated and less prejudice towards this subject. Bad people do bad things; race has nothing to do with it.

In my opinion all that is needed is your guidance and your patience in delivering that guidance day after day, through the years. A young mind is a wonderful responsibility. The education you provide at home is what will be lived by your son.

Respectfully..

[Guest Scott Clinton]

IMHO, Tailz hit the nail on the head.

But you are the only one that will be able to decide if your son can understand the difference between reality and games, and more importantly between good people/actions and bad people/actions.

If you don't think (or are not sure) he can tell the difference sufficiently between these (admittedly adult subjects) I would strongly suggest you do as Tailz suggested and not allow him to play games involving the SS or even CM altogether.

Keep in mind he is only five, there will be many years of happy gaming ahead for him when he is ready.

I started playing wargames (miniatures back then) when I was five and I still, to this day, remember the occasional talk I had with my Dad about these very subjects. I never thought much about it at the time (or perhaps was a little annoyed). But today, I can see exactly what he was doing and why.

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Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[This message has been edited by Scott Clinton (edited 09-06-2000).]

[Bullethead]

Warren Peace said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Q. Is five too young to be playing CM?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think so. When I was 5, my favorite bedtime stories were my parents recounting the martial exploits of my ancestors and cousins (from WW2 to the Dark Ages) and having chapters read from books of real combat stories, with all the bloody details. Had CM and PCs existed back then, I'm sure I'd have been playing that. As it was, I had to settle for plastic armymen in the sandbox.

I don't think this warped my mind. I'm a law-abiding citizen. In fact, I think learning at a young age about how nasty wars really are, and why individual soldiers fight them, helped me develop a sense of community spirit and the recognition that self-sacrifice for your way of life is a necessity. This in turn has made me appreciate our freedoms all the more, as well as benefited society at large by my service in the Marines and fire department.

Besides, IMHO one of the most important things parents can do to raise kids is to let them know, as soon as possible, that the real world is a harsh place and that life isn't fair. That bad things almost always happen to good people (because they happen to everybody), that the strong always try to dominate the weak, etc. War is just part of this over-all human condition. Easing kids into this sad knowledge as early as possible keeps them from developing illusions and thus suffering severe shock when they find out the truth.

BTW, I'm not a cynic, I'm a realist

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-Bullethead

Want a naval sim? Check out Raider Operations at www.historicalgames.bizland.com/index.html

[jshandorf]

You have a very bright child there! I am glad for you and your son.

One thing you might want to do is introduce your son to WWII history. I reccomend getting him reading on the subject since that is probably the least shocking way to learn about war.

For movies there are extensive video series about WWII. I am sure you could find them if you looked them up on the web. But take in mind something like this maybe to too much for a child so young, but you kown him best.

As for playing CM. I feel as long as the child has an understanding as to what the game is representing thier is no reason as to why he shouldn't be able to play.

Jeff

[jshandorf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bullethead:

Warren Peace said:

BTW, I'm not a cynic, I'm a realist

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL, I have yet to find anyone who believes even me when I say that. Even my GF gives me that "look" when I say it.

Jeff

[DrD]

Does he play PBEM?

[Naja]

I have a five year old boy and a three year old girl. I would take a different tact than 'good guys and bad guys' because all too often my son wants to be the "bad transformer" or "bad power ranger" and I don't object. (How many times as a kid did you want to be the Indians, I mean the cowboys, I mean the Indians - whichever one was bad at the time.) Personally the topic of the SS has never come up, but war in general has, including related subjects (politics, defending country, honour, etc.). I made a simple rule from day one: NEVER lie to my kids. NEVER. And it has served me very well. At this age, as you know, they pick up on everything around them and I would agree that children's thinking is very rigid - almost black and white; but they are in the process of filling in the gray which can jade the best of us. No kid wants to be "bad", they're just obsorbing the world with all its good and bad.

I personally would explain that a lot of people were killed in that war and some are alive today including sons, grandsons, etc. and talking in public about it may bring up painful memories for some.

My 2 cents worth thanks

[Naja]

One more thing, I heard a news blurb yesterday: In New Zealand they are planning on requiring children to register their toy guns (CM could be next). I can't seem to figure out how to make my son be all things to all people (politically correct) so I teach love of Family, God, and Country. The rest seems to be falling in place.

another 2 cents. hey, almost a nickle worth!

[Guest Offwhite]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jshandorf:

LOL, I have yet to find anyone who believes even me when I say that. Even my GF gives me that "look" when I say it.

Jeff<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

She is obviously a cynic, then, and can't be expected to understand

[WendellM]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>How many times as a kid did you want to be the Indians, I mean the cowboys, I mean the Indians - whichever one was bad at the time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Touche, Naja. You show a deft touch (no smilies or nuthin' - I'm serious).

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bullethead:

BTW, I'm not a cynic, I'm a realist

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

'The powers of accurate perception are often called cynicism by those who don not possess them.' (quote, but forgot by whom)

No idea on your son, sorry. But he sounds very bright. Good luck with that.

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Andreas

[Kingfish]

Once, my 7 month old beat Freyland in a PBEM game. I was concerned about what impact the knowledge of being soundly thrashed by an infant would have on Jon's self-esteem, so i kept it to myself.

To this day he still doesn't know

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Charlie don't surf!

[tedrik]

hi,

some years ago i worked for the youth office in london and had to defend myself in a diciplinary hearing against allegations that my use of fantasy role playing games to motivate young people could be seen as corrupting their values. i was in trouble until i said "i believe that killing and war should stay in the realm of fantasy where it belongs." people seemed to understand that one. this probably holds true for wargames and thus CM as well i think.

as for very young people i think the important thing is to help the YP's understanding with guidance and patience.and truth.and example.

cheers

tedrik

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'Every attack ends in a defense'. Clausewitz

[Guest Silesian-jaeger]

By all means let the little tyke play. Just keep him the hell away from this board until he is 18!

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"In one (German) town, Private Honey stood next to an

elderly German man and a ten-year-old boy. As the Shermans and brand-new

Pershings rumbled by the boy said,'Deutsches Panzer lind besser.' Honey

looked down at him and asked,'If

German tanks are better,

why aren't they here?' "

quote from Stephen E. Ambrose, "Citizen Soldiers"

[This message has been edited by Silesian-jaeger (edited 09-06-2000).]

[Tiger]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>That being said, part of life is learning how and where to use context to moderate what you say and how you say it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*poke*

Jeff Heidman wrote this?!?! *grin*

Alright come on...what did you do with the real Jeff Heidman.

-johnS

[Paul Lakowski]

My kid has been playing all the evil Play station games for several years now with his teenage older brother. Initially I was quite conscerned and repeatedly reminded them that this wasn't real....until my six year old turned to me and said "get a life dad its just a game"

Mind you he's learned one of the most important lessons in life..... that to get to the next level you have to 'Kill the Boss'

[infohawk]

Today I was shocked when my pet monkey came into my room with an SS uniform on.( Dylan is a precocious little chimp). He had been playing CM for a couple weeks and had managed to climb fairly high in the ladder. I have stopped him from playing. Is this a good idea?

[This message has been edited by infohawk (edited 09-06-2000).]

[Gen. Sosaboski]

Wow! Amazing! I too had an avid interest in WWII when I was 3, especially aviation, and here I am now. My art sketchbook is also filed with battles from 3rd grade. Makes me wistful...

Yes, let him play. Like others have said, explain the SS to him in a way he'll understand. I'd only let my kid (if I had one) play Allies until say 10-13.

Just my humble opinion.

[Von Brizee]

My 10 year old cousin was very into CC4: Battle of the Bulge. His favorite unit was Jochen Peiper's because it had a whole load of Panthers in it. He didn't know anything of atrocities or whatnot, he just found out by playing that Panthers ruled, and the unit with the most of them was his favorite. So he joined a Wargaming Forum and made his name SS Joachim Peiper. He had no idea why people were flaming him and he was eventually banned. I explained it to him and he realized that some people get offended by those types of things, so he just changed his name to PantherCommander. Just teach the little guy not to talk about the Germans until he's older

[Warren Peace]

Hi all:

Thanks for all the comments. After talking with my wife I think we will continue to let him playing, but I need to have a chat with him about the Waffen-SS and the history behind it. Unfortunately, Nazi Germany was all too real and not just the villian in a computer game.

Warren