Five year old playing CM-parental imput wanted

[Steel Rain]

My six year old plays as well. His grasp of history is not all that good but he has managed to beat the AI in a meeting engagement. What I like about this, is the fact that he is starting to ask me questions about Tiger Tanks and how to kill them. This is the kind of entertainment that builds both knowledge and abstract thinking, much better than Bugs Bunny.

I am in the IT industry and I fear these children when they grow up, I am certain I will be put out of a job

[patboivin]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Warren Peace:

Hi all:

Thanks for all the comments. After talking with my wife I think we will continue to let him playing, but I need to have a chat with him about the Waffen-SS and the history behind it. Unfortunately, Nazi Germany was all too real and not just the villian in a computer game.

Warren<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Warren,

I think that is the best approach.

I have a four year old who told me the other day he didn't want to play Blue's Clues on the computer, he wanted to play "Daddy's Game."

I explained that he might play later, when he is older. I took the time to explain that this is a game, not reality, and that what happens in games should NOT be acted out in reality. I showed him one movie sequence in the game where some squads were eliminated, and I explained that these people are hurt, some have died, and they will never come back because they are dead. (we lost a cat already, so I think he knows about how death prevents people from coming back.) I am not sure he understood, but I think he's getting it.

One of his friends up the street plays DOOM of all things (in God mode no less) and my wife and I were concerned. We just told our son never to play that game, and we told the boy's mother that our son wasn't allowed to play Doom. She acted embarrassed but didn't stop her son from playing it, but when our son is there Doom stays off.

I think if we keep explaining the difference intelligently and truthfully, our kids will understand. I am more worried about the kids on my street who walk around in camo pants and spend most of their days shooting each other, or the teenagers who can't seem to be able to walk down the street (they don't use the sidewalk) without having at least eight of their peers with them.

It's that false bravado that worries me, people with low self-esteem who act powerful to compensate. Some of these (not most of them, thank God) may decided one day that they can feel strong for a while if they step on other people. They are after hurting others and power just for the sake of filling a bottomless pit inside. Those are the dangerous ones in my opinion, especially if they get addicted to that feeling of power over others. They feel immortal for a while, the feeling doesn't last so they have to do it again, and again. Lying and cruelty become a way of life for them. (ref. Escape from Evil, Ernest Becker).

(can you tell I have a B.A. in Psychology?)

Pat.

[This message has been edited by patboivin (edited 09-06-2000).]

[Guest jaja]

I've been playing wargames since I was four (The Battle of Britin). Now I'm fourteen and perfectly normal.

Mr. Rabbit,

I want your skeletons trained in tree combat. I expect that your division will be ready to finish off Canada in Feb. 2008 unless hostilities develop between our forces and the recently contacted extra-terrestrials.

jaja

Oops. Wrong discussion area. If my plans are interrupted all on this board will pay!

[This message has been edited by jaja (edited 09-06-2000).]

[Guest Silesian-jaeger]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by infohawk:

Today I was shocked when my pet monkey came into my room with an SS uniform on.( Dylan is a precocious little chimp). He had been playing CM for a couple weeks and had managed to climb fairly high in the ladder. I have stopped him from playing. Is this a good idea?

[This message has been edited by infohawk (edited 09-06-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that you should spank your monkey.

[Banshee]

If you were a true Grog you would let the kid play all he wants, but if he did something tactially dumb you would punish him.

Dad:"What?! You positioned your forces on the forward slope and exposed them to direct fire!

Now you go sit in the corner and think about what you did!

Bad commander, bad bad commander!"

[argie]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Banshee:

If you were a true Grog you would let the kid play all he wants, but if he did something tactially dumb you would punish him.

Dad:"What?! You positioned your forces on the forward slope and exposed them to direct fire!

Now you go sit in the corner and think about what you did!

Bad commander, bad bad commander!"

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He must be sharing that corner with a lot of USA officers from Korea's War

Ariel

ps: Don't let your kids fall in this addiction... Ban CM for them!!!

[Slapdragon]

As a scientist you should read the research on violence, children, and games. Most normally adjusted children do not suffer from contact with violent games or tough ideas if they have an adult to help them draw lessons from material they see. The damaging material seems to be a situation where he or she cannot take control of their destiny, like a hack and slash horror movie. Detailed video games in fact are usually very positive for children's learning, just as wargames were 20 years ago. Keep him or her away from Friday the 13th and turn them onto games, as long as you explain the ethical factors around the game. Later, when he or she is older, you can introduce them to concepts like the holocaust and they will be able to understand it.

One thing, be careful glorifying the Nazi elements of the game. Let your child know that they are "bad men" and that the green guys are "good guys". If he is up to it, then you can explain that the "bad men" were serving an evil master, but now are "good me" and you have a little morality lesson.

[PeterNZer]

One thing we've forgot to mention is that CM is based on history, stuff that happened. He may not be aware of that. So to him, it's just grey and green and explosions and stuff, but what it represents is greater.

I guess a simple history lesson would be usefull.. Pull out an atlas and show him the US, show him Europe and describe how the Germans took a lot of land and there was lots of war all over Europe.. pictures and maps might make things a bit easier.

If you have family history, tell him that too 'see that tank', 'your grandad drove one like that in the war'. Hell, take him to a museum so he can see one right up close.

I think realising that although it's a game, it's based on real life stuff would provide enough food for thought.

I think 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is a good idea for now, .. to a degree. Shades of moral grey and pretty tricky for kids to pick, (there's lots of studies that show this, eg. most kids under 8-10 will say that someone who steals to feed their babies should go to jail because stealing is wrong.. kids getting older understand that there are sometimes factors which make those decisions tougher).

I read a REALLY interesting article by a child psychologist and ordaned priest, no less, who had come to firmly believe that some form of child gun/war/etc play was bassically natural and beneficial to kids.

He and his wife had long followed a 'no weapons' policy for their son who was about 6 or 7, but a few things got him thinking

First a kid came into his practice who was 5 and a right terror at school, disruptive, unnatentive.. and generally naughty. In the psych sessions with a co-worker, this kid would just play with a toy gun in the room and go 'bang your dead' to the psych and the psych would go 'egad' and pretend to die, and they'd do this for just about an hour solid a few days a week for a few weeks pretty much! After this.. the kids behaviour improved tremendously and was essentially 'fixed'.

the write obviously was puzzled by this, and it set him off thinking. Nothing really came of it untill halloween when his own son, who was a very timid boy, asked to be a Knight for fancy dress. The writer and his parents agreed, but of course, said 'no sword', kid was very disapointed. Well the author started thinking. His son was very timid, as I said, didn't like the scary parts of books and cartoons, they really freaked him out more than is usual, and he wouldn't have them read to him.. didn't like witches stories.. all that stuff.. O i remember now too, didn't like Star Wars, found Darth Vadar way too scary

Anyway, the kid constantly asked to be allowed to have a toy sword for halloween. And the author started thinking 'maybe he knows what is best for him'. So talking to his wife they agreed to let him have a plastic toy sword. Kid was over the moon and with his parents they played games of him being a brave knight rescuing the damsel and killing the Dragon.

Kid was very happy, and very happy on Haloween and proud to be a Knight with a sword and so on. The doctor also noticed that one day his son and other kids were playing a 'star wars' game and that the kids 'killed' Darth Vadar in the way kids to -whack whack you're dead-.. and so a kinda light went on in his head.

Well he thought:

Kids see things in black and white, good and evil. Lots of stuff is pretty scary to them, they are small and generally powerless, (I remember as a kid being annoyed I wasn't grown up so i could do what i wanted!). They use games and play to reasure themselves and make things less scary, and to give themselves some power.

The kid who shoots the 'bad guy' isn't doing it because the kid is violent, the kid is doing it to reassure the kid that the bad guy can be defeated, that the child has a way of doing it through their sword or gun or something. Children know they can't do it on their own strength, so these 'tools' become important in the battle.

What he was seeing in his son was a disempowerment, he was unable to defeat the scary things and felt powerless against them. With creative and controlled play using the sword etc (instead of say, just beating the jones son over the head with it for half an hour hehe), the child was 'empowered'. Despite the flashy PC words, there's a basic truth there I think!

He came to think it wasn't a good idea to dumb-down those old fairy stories either. Kids have a black and white view of good and bad. If you're a bad giant and you steal something you get punished, (head cut off or whatever!). Often stories blur this action-punishment action-reward situation and in his opinion just didn't give kids a clear 'do wrong you will be in trouble' message due to a desire to have a PC happy resolution, the naughty giant gets told off and let back into Happy Land or whatever.

Anyway, I'm rambling now. As always I found that article really interesting and from what i've seen of kids I agree with his thoughts on kids using play to reasure and teach.

Anyway, I think you are lucky to have a smart son, and I'm sure he will grasp the difficult historical concepts in some form, I guess just explain it simply and with aids from maps and pictures.. perhaps tell him that the SS did bad things and even grown-ups find the SS scary... i dunno

PeterNZ

[pzvg]

So easy for some of you, try explaining that Nazi Germany was evil, and did evil things,

(explaining about war is easy when you wear a green suit) But Grandpa was not evil, he did not do evil things. (Opa was a 50-something reservist recalled in '44) I found that very hard with the first daughter, (yes she plays wargames) hopefully I'll have better answers for the second one(10 months,she eats wargames) "But Dad, if Opa fought for the Germans, he had to be a bad guy, right?" (something like this at a family get together can age you 15 years in a minute)

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Pzvg

"Confucious say, it is better to remain silent, and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt"

[aka_tom_w]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon:

As a scientist you should read the research on violence, children, and games.

One thing, be careful glorifying the Nazi elements of the game. Let your child know that they are "bad men" and that the green guys are "good guys". If he is up to it, then you can explain that the "bad men" were serving an evil master, but now are "good me" and you have a little morality lesson. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WOW

That sounds very typically american and very ethnocentric. And what if your children are growing up in Germany with German parents?

I find this suggestion that the grey guys are "bad men" and that the green guys are "good guys". If he is up to it, then you can explain that the "bad men" were serving an evil master, but now are "good me" to be a suggestion that perhaps some people here on this board may wonder about?

I don't have any kids so I don't really know about this one, but I do find the "we won and we are the good guys and they lost and they were the evil empire" concept some what distastful in the same way the that the victors write the history books, and they don't always do it accurately.

(for the record my father fought in WWII for the British in Singapore)

Perhaps if you have kids you needs to do this to make things simpler...

I don't have kids and I so I guess I really don't know...

just my thoughts

-tom w

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 09-07-2000).]

[Sailor Malan]

Couple of points I have thought of while reading this thread.

1. School art class report (mine, aged 9, I think). 'There must be something in life other than Spitfires'. (Some people think I am not too bad as an adult(!))

2. As has been pointed out by some of our German readers, doing the 'Good Guys' 'Bad guys' bit can also get you in to trouble, because life really isn't that simple. I think that explaining war in general, in terms children can understand will get you some way there (and will enable a good plug on the awfulness of it, and how lots of things happen that are terrible, and 'nice people' dont do them). WWII is then special case of a really big war that was really nasty. In this way you avoid labelling Germans as bad etc. The SS issue, I have no better answer to than has already been suggested. The only new item I can add is how my parents dealt with my 'WWII was fun' phase (aged approx 7-8, dont remember exactly). They took me to Belsen concentration camp (now a memorial with mass graves, and an exhibition with some pretty traumatic pictures). I still remember very clearly. (Difficult if you dont happen to live in Germany, which we did!)

(BTW I write this on the same basis as the Pope writes on sex - I have no children, so ignore me if you wish ! )

------------------

The conception of such a plan was impossible for a man of Montgomery's innate caution...In fact, Montgomery's decision to mount the operation ...[Market Garden] was as startling as it would have been for an elderly and saintly Bishop suddenly to decide to take up safe breaking and begin on the Bank of England. (R.W.Thompson, Montgomery the Field Marshall)

[ntg84]

hmmmm, I dont know if I deserve the right to post on this topic, but here it goes.

I'm 15 and can not relate to having a kid or anything, but if you are concerned with violence I'll tell you something about me. I play all the violent games and watch bloody movies, but I will never have the intent to shoot up a school. You know why, becasue my parents have been there to tell me about everything, they inroduced me to history at a young age, and explained everything to me. They explained movies to me. But I think the only way your children will get corrupted by violence in the media and in games, is if you are not involved with them. If you explain what everything is and tell them that it is wrong at a young age, where they still listen to you will be ok. At 15 I dont listen much to my parents anymore, but the things they instilled into me at a young age still stick and I will never forget the core values they gave to me.

Hope this wasn't all to stupid, I hope it realtes to the topic, and if not bring on the flames

[Slapdragon]

I speak from actual experience, and it is not egocentric americanism. When I was 6 I was crawling around my grandpas stuff and I found a sword and a clipping book. I brought it out and showed it to Grandpa. He said that his grandfather was an officer with the 2nd Virginia, a slave holder, and a proud man. "Old Man" Jackson as grampa called him did not try to mince words like they do today, he was fighting to keep his slaves. Then my grandfather explained that "old man" was in the grey, and he thought he was fighting for the correct things, but he was not, and today Virginia is part of the United States, but we are the heirs of an evil legacy. Grandpa Jackson, now long dead, was a wise man, but all that went right over my head, it was too complex. Now I read Grandpa's writing and I realize he should have simplified it for me. My forbear was not a dupe, he was not a poor reservist caught up against his will. He was a slave holder and he was proud of his holding slaves. He was also fighting for the wrong cause, and as a child I needed that spelled out for me.

[Naja]

Parents are always thinking of the future. As has been pointed out earlier - children think in 'black and white'. This is just the base most parents are given with which to fill in the 'grey'. As "ntg84" says, being there to answer questions helps cement the foundation that children need - an even gradient of grey. I am 'God' to my children (not so much my wife.) Abuse that power or ignore its importance, and surely the curtain will be pulled, to reveal the old man that they later suspect. Pitifully, you will be left tugging at strings than no longer bind. The magical quality of children is that they see the world clearly as it is, and not as you or I imagine it, but as it really is. Fill in the grey TRUTHFULLY but just one shade at a time, if you can.

"What's this have to do with Combat Mission?" you might ask. A lot. I think for most WWII buffs we were attracted by the things that interest most kids. For me it was the planes, many dozens zeroxed at the local public library (yes the money to zerox was supposed to be for school lunch) and dutifully pasted in my bedroom. Like most inquisitive kids I soon discovered : just scratch the surface and many questions lead to many books for answers, and very fast. Black and white is not as clear as once supposed. The weak will retreat and shun questions and answers. The strong will keep feeding the beast with the never ending appetite: Knowledge.

[Herr Oberst]

I have a 9 year old and a 4 year old.

Right now the older is into the CC series, Age of Empires, Starcraft, and CM as well, although CM is "too slow" for him. But he likes watching me play, because when I play, he can pester/pepper me with questions.

I for one, like the sound of "Why are you doing that?" coming from his mouth (even if his questions are distracting, and cost me a squad or vehicle or two). It means that he is thinking.

He has always had an amazing vocabulary, and soaks up knowledge on topics he is interested in. I try to use CM and other games as leverage points in explaining the value of "knowing what" (rote knowledge) but more importantly the value of "knowing why" (critical thinking).

Rote knowledge prepares you for situations that fit your mold. Understanding theory lets you intelligently adapt to new, previously unencountered situations.

My personal historical favorite:

Him: "Well, who are you going to move? I want to see you move some guys."

Me: "I don't know yet, I'm working on a math problem right now."

Him: "Math?!? I thought you were playing Combat Mission."

When else do I get a chance to talk to him about Planning, tactical thinking, strategic thinking, risk assessment, balancing competing objectives, etc., and how each component needs its time in the spotlight to develop a well-balanced plan.

Now, when my wife asks what we are doing, he tells her we are "Working on a math problem"

It just happens to be annotated with visual and audio feedback cues regarding the most recently tested one-minute hypothesis.

Summing up, whatever tools I have at my disposal that will let me capture his mind for a portion of a day I will use. That includes CC, AoE, CM, Legos, whatever.

[GonzoAttacker]

I was playing chess by the age of four. My sons have played chess from that time on. I know they would of loved this game too. As all should even in play station and nitendo games you must monitor the play.

Go for it!

[Guest tero]

Our 2½ year old son has taken a general interest in tanks and he likes to watch me play CM. I even let him click on the GO button when the moves are done.

He knows already how to open up the machine and how to operate the mouse. Before I let him take over for our first hotseat I will teach him the basics of tactics, starting with chess. The reason why I want him to take the long route is because I think he needs to know the basics concepts of war first, from victory to defeat and casualty.

The wife goes ape**** everytime I watch "Tanks!" or other war documentaries on Discovery and I let our son watch them too. She feels it is not healthy to expose an infant to the horrors of war but I feel he really needs to understand that each kill (tank, plane, what ever) means that in every tank plane or what ever there were people inside who propably died (a horrible death at that). I do not do this to harden him, I do it to make him see the connection between the PC screen and real life.

And even CM is all about overcoming your opponent by killing him if necessary. There are no good guys or bad guys, only survivors and dead or injured people. That is why I really abhor explaining these abstract concepts of "good" and "bad" to the child first up, before he understands he is killing PEOPLE, even if it is in a virtual world. When he understands that I can start explaining the WHY's of wars.

[jackhammer]

Well Warren, if I was you I'd be very careful with your son. I speak from personal experience. When I was a grade school student(about 20 years ago) I used to draw war scenes and read books ( fiction and non-fiction) about WW2. Unfortunately at that time (and even today), many such books feel it necessary to plaster the cover with swazickas (sp).I had jewish teacher you did not take too kindly to this and she told my mom that there was something mentally wrong with me and that I needed to see a shrink!Needless to say the shrink told my mom to tell the teacher to go take a flying leap. Bottom line is be careful with what your son does and says in public. Others might not be understanding. Also why do so many book and game publishers feel it necessary to adorn their products with nazi symbols?I recently bought the softcover version of Steel Inferno and it's cover suffers from the same deficientcy. I was almost too embarrased to buy the book!

[Michlos]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tero:

He knows already how to open up the machine and how to operate the mouse. Before I let him take over for our first hotseat I will teach him the basics of tactics, starting with chess. The reason why I want him to take the long route is because I think he needs to know the basics concepts of war first, from victory to defeat and casualty.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree fully, for me chess is a great game since its not only fun but also challenges your mind and it makes you really work.

Over all I think that common sense is the best method for this whole discussion. I mean if your 6 year old runs around constantly talking about Waffen SS and Liebstandarte Adolf Hitler, I think its really time to have a talk with him.

I believe though that as long as you explain for them what it's all about then I don't see any real harm in them playing CM or watching Discovery Channel.

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< All gave some, some gave ALL>

Owner of MiNa's CMBO Page

http://come.to/combatmission

[Master Bates]

The answer is : there is no answer. It was just an unfortunate incident.

I actually found the story to be amusing more than anything else.

[Subvet]

While I'm not in a hurry for my daughter to grow up (she's 21 months now) it will be nice to have an opponent in the house to play CM against! Maybe I should start making up some flash cards with pictures of WW2 tanks on them to get her started.

------------------

Craiger

All your victory flag are belong to me

[Terence]

Lots of good advice in this thread.

Whatever you decide to do about the Waffenm SS will work, Im sure.

Another worry that I think is out there as far as children and video games are concerned is repetitive stress injury.

You are probably already doing this, but I think that people should make sure their kids don't injure their hands and arms playing too much.

I've had RSI (repetitive stress injury) from lots and lots of computer use and it really sucks.

[Iskander]

Originally posted by Subvet:

... Maybe I should start making up some flash cards with pictures of WW2 tanks on them to get her started.

Now that is an excellent idea! Sometime next year after we've bought our daughter I'll print those up!

As regards the rest: it seems a common thread (so to speak) for many of us was pictures to games to history. I hope that I have such luck with my kid(s). Capture their imaginations -- capture their minds.

And regarding "good guys" "bad guys": my wife's father was Hungarian Cav and fought alongside Germans in '44-'45. My daughter will be Chinese, a group that some view as "the next threat to America." Thus, I have some thinking ahead of me as to how to handle questions and/or declarations of good and evil.

So in 3-5 years... I hope she and I will be hotseating CM4!

[Frenchy]

I have two daughters, 7 and 9, that have an interest in the game. They watch me play and ask how to play. My nine year old and I will play a quick game this weekend.

My 9 year old, having been learning about World War 2 and Roosevelt in her 3rd grade class the past two weeks, said,"Now I know why grandmas hate the Germans."

Her paternal grandmother is French and lived her childhood under Nazi occupation and her maternal grandmother is Jewish.

I also told her her great grandad was a combat engineer during the war. After discussing more aspects of the war, I was amazed at how much of a grasp she had on the history of the war.

Just be honest and give them both sides of the story. Teach them the difference between right and wrong and hope they listen and remember by the time they are teenagers!

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Webmaster

http://www.trailblazersww2.org

http://www.vmfa251.org

[This message has been edited by Frenchy (edited 03-15-2001).]

[Vomitmeister]

Just a word of warning, remember that most kids at that age believe in Santa still. If they beleive in something like that, they are very susceptable to the wrong impressions of what they see. A woman at work told me about an incident at her daughter's kindergarten. Some kid came in to school and told some other kid that he was going to kill the other kid. Of course this got the attention of the school. Turned out that this kid picked it up from watching dad play Quake-type games. Remember that it isn't just what the kids play, it is also what they watch or hear you play.