ASL Conversions - a long, rambling, self important speech

[ASL Veteran]

I was going to post this on your message board Col Klotz, but I couldn't get registered I am also posting this out of a deep sense of disappointment so you can take this with that in mind. Anyway, I was going to urge the ASL scenario converters to think of a few things when doing their conversions:

1. ASL purists (like me) are probably going to be trying your scenarios, and any deviations from those scenarios will be noted.

2. HASL scenarios are just that - HISTORICAL. You probably should not be tweaking balance in a historical scenario except in terms of game length, victory flags, etc. The OB should be slavishly adhered to though.

3. If you don't know the rules of ASL or if you don't fully understand the SSRs then you may want to check with someone who does because these SSRs can be very important to the way the scenario is supposed to play out.

Naturally, these conversions are your own work and you can ultimately do what you want with them. However, some of us crusty ASL veterans may want to play those scenarios as a plain vanilla straight conversion. Some modifications can be justified if you explain those reasons in your briefing somewhere because some scenarios simply wont work without some modifications.

Some might say - well ASL Veteran, go make your own scenario if you want to convert scenarios to your liking - and I may do a few. But, if you are posting an ASL scenario conversion to a website as spectacular as Col Klotz's, just keep in mind that the 'publics' expectations may differ from your expectations and that some may not appreciate a 'loose' conversion as much as you - especially when I see the attention to detail that the Col has demonstrated in his maps and scenarios - very high quality work.

Not to pick on anyone, but I am simply going to use two scenarios as an example. I just want to preface this by saying that I am sure these converters did a lot of hard work on their scenarios and have a sense of pride in their work. Mad Minute is a scenario that I enjoyed immensely in ASL and played it numerous times. I still remember the time I got a critical hit on a TD, but since he was HD behind a roadblock my friend said I missed because I rolled doubles. Later it was revealed that a critical hit would have hit him regardless of the HD status I was pretty fired up when I saw Mad Minute on Col Klotz's website. I thought my friends and I could relive fond memories playing Mad Minute in CM. Well the Mad Minute that is on the website has absolutely nothing to do with the ASL scenario Mad Minute. In defense of the person doing the conversion he did say that he thought the ASL maps were boring so he 'spruced them up' a bit (quite a bit actually) and that's fine. Just don't try to sell an ASLer on that scenario being Mad Minute because it isn't. Some of us like the 'boring' maps. Call your scenario something else.

Beast at Bay was another disappointment. There were extensive modifications to the OB for both sides. Well, Beast at Bay is a historical scenario and I don't think the OB should be tampered with. If play balance is a concern then make minor adjustments in the victory conditions or objective placement. Also, the SSR says that the weather is clear and that mist DR are NA so the addition of fog (while neat to look at) is also incorrect. Once again, if these modifications are going to be made - note them somewhere so we all know the rationale behind it.

One last thing about play balancing. You should only have to modify one side to play balance something - if you are modifying both sides then you aren't balancing a scenario you are making a new one.

Okay, now you can all tell me to stuff it and make my own scenarios

[Tiger]

blah. this foot tastes good !

[This message has been edited by Tiger (edited 08-28-2000).]

[TankDawg]

ASL Vet,

As a huge CM fan and avid ASLer I completely agree with your comments.

Tiger,

We would be lucky on this discussion board to attract more ASLers. Their email(discussion) list is now 9 years old and boasts way more contributors than this list.

So an occasional ASL/CM post shouldn't mess things up too much.

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Jeff Newell

TankDawg

[Berlichtingen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>This is the new ASL message board?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, however, the post is very much about CM.

ASL Veteran,

Have you looked at the scenarios that Cory and I have done? Your comments, either pro or con, are welcome.

[dalem]

Can't resist:

ASL. MMmmmmmm, yummy.

I am bringing a buddy along to the point that we will be ready to play the full Red Barricades HASL Campaign in a couple of months.

Can't wait.

And of course, CM. MMmmmmmm, yummy.

-dale

[Keith]

With all do respect I disagree with your assements. While it is true that the Squad Leader game makes scenarios based on historical facts, the original scenario designers most certainly took liberties to achieve game balance and playability. Do you really believe the scenario designers had such exact unit information available? Even the U.S. Army "Green Books" (which I own) don't provide this level of detail (except in documented Small Unit Actions).

In addition the terrain maps provided by the SL game are contrived in order to make interesting gaming situations. There is absolutey nothing historic about these maps at all and are in fact very generic.

That said I see no reason why someone can try to adjust elements of an original SL scenario as long as he/she seeks to achieve the spirit of the scenario and strives for historical accuracy. Most importantly, however, is that the game should be ENJOYABLE and FUN. In anycase, if you don't like someone's ASL conversion, feel free to post your own.

[sniperscope]

ASL Vet: You have some very good points. However, speaking only for myself, I simply change the OB where ever I feel need change. I am just so glad that these guys took the time to make the map and scenarios. Col Klotz's ASL site is one of the best for CM.

sniperscope

[ASL Veteran]

Originally posted by Keith:

With all do respect I disagree with your assements. While it is true that the Squad Leader game makes scenarios based on historical facts, the original scenario designers most certainly took liberties to achieve game balance and playability.

Yes, that is true. Let me clarify something. The HASL (historical ASL scenarios) should be adhered to as much as possible because they are Historical scenarios. The regular scenarios should be adhered to because if you are going to recreate an ASL scenario then recreate it - don't just don't take a bunch of liberties with a scenario and call it something that it isn't. If you want to create a new scenario based on an ASL scenario - don't call it by that original scenario's name, call it something else because that is what it is, something else. Those of us who are planning to refight an ASL scenario in CM would like as close a conversion to that scenario as possible. The issue of whether the original designers took liberties or not is not the concern because it is the recreation of the scenario itself that is my concern. If someone wants to make their own scenario on the same topic - by all means make it. BUT, don't call it by the same name as the ASL scenario because that is not what you are making. You are making your own scenario. Name it something else.

[Los]

One niggly obstacle to receating ASL scenarios "Historically" (I'm talking historically to the original ASL scenario as opposed to the actual historical battle since the two are only loosly related), is the current inability to select single squads, leaders and whatnot. It is something that hopefully will be added in the future.

Los

[Harold]

Hey guys,

As a long time ASL player I feel that an ASL scenario should strongly resemble the original design but sometimes things don't get "right on" because of the scenario editor, CM OB vs ASL OB, etc. Only then should it get tweaked and even then should be done to a minimum. Right now I am in the midst of converting Gavin Take, Merzenhausen Zoo, Celles Melee, Tiger Route and Hill 621 (yes that Hill 621) and I am trying to stay as faithful to the original as possible. It is just waiting for the Russians .) It may or may not happen but that is my goal. One thing that might help a lot is to point out that the ASL conversions _should_ be designed for and played against a live opponent and not the AI. I have played Gavin Take several times as the Airborne vs the AI and I know that if I played it vs a live person it would definitely play out much different. One last thing. Make sure to give credit to the original ASL author, if known. They did the work. We are the converters.

Harold

[Wayne]

The problem with converting ASL scenarios to CM is that the two are different elements. Case in point; ASL maps have woods and clear hexes. CM maps have clear, woods and scattered trees. In ASL, you can't sight units through woods, however in CM units can be sighted through the tops of the trees. Another point; tanks in ASL are less effective than tanks in CM. I remember trying to take out infantry with tanks in ASL and not being able to do it because of bad die roles. Shooting infantry in CM is far easier. CM is a 3D simulation of combat, ASL is a war game, not a simulator. Any one to one conversion of ASL to CM is going to be impossible in my opinion. I'm not saying that the mentioned scenarios don't have problems, since I haven't played them yet, but don't expect ASL scenarios to turn out the same in CM.

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Blessed be the Lord my strength who teaches my hands to war and my fingers to fight.

[IntelWeenie]

As a published ASL scenario writer ("Danger Forward" from AP2), I feel the need to comment here. When I wrote that scenario, I did in fact use the best sources available to me at the time (US Army "green book" and some other documents from the 1st ID Museum's library), but I still had to use my best judgment when actually filling out the OBs. The level of detail needed for sub-battalion actions is often hard to find or just plain inaccurate and contradictory. About the best you can usually hope for are good briefings and an accurate map.

Which brings up my biggest disappointment regarding ASL scenario conversions so far. The geomorphic maps were fine in ASL, but for CM, they don't seem to work as well during play. I find them to often be too "open" with way too many long LOSs. Of course, on some boards this is a plus. However, when doing a 'historical' scenario, I think the board/map should be open to modifications. I'm (slowly) working on "Dorset Wood in the Rain" and I gave up on a geomorphic map conversion. Instead, I made up a map that generally resembles the original, but that I think works much better in CM.

Of course, HASL scenarios are a different story, but there is still some wiggle room given the different map scales and methods (squares vs. hexes). Still, they form a good basis to start from, since those authors generally did really good research. Can't wait to see RB in CM2!!!!

Gee, I think this is my longest post ever!

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"Belly to belly and everything's better" - Russian proverb

[Culex Pipiens]

i made different scenarios on Col Klotz site,

so can i say something.

firt Cm is not ASl, it similar but not the same. so trying to copy a scenario is impossible,you can try to convert a game into another.

*1. ASL purists (like me) are probably going to be trying your scenarios, and any deviations from those scenarios will be noted

-you are right but are different game, the first difference is that the maps are in hexagon in CM in square so till the map can not be equal

*2. HASL scenarios are just that - HISTORICAL. You probably should not be tweaking balance in a historical scenario except in terms of game length, victory flags, etc. The OB should be slavishly adhered to though.

-the balance is right for ASL not for CM

try to convert a scenario and you will find that often a pool of force in a scenario is not balanced when converted in CM

*Beast at Bay was another disappointment. There were extensive modifications to the OB for both sides. Well, Beast at Bay is a historical scenario and I don't think the OB should be tampered with. If play balance is a concern then make minor adjustments in the victory conditions or objective placement. Also, the SSR says that the weather is clear and that mist DR are NA so the addition of fog (while neat to look at) is also incorrect. Once again, if these modifications are going to be made - note them somewhere so we all know the rationale behind it.

-As i told you , and an example of the difference between ASL and Cm, the weather is costant through the scenario in ASl you can roll to change, so it is possible to make a choice for the scenario also for ply balance.

At last these scenarios, as i wrote "based on ASL" can be setted by whoever want to play it so it very difficult to find a converted scenario that is equal/same to ASL

[ASL Veteran]

Originally posted by Culex Pipiens:

-As i told you , and an example of the difference between ASL and Cm, the weather is costant through the scenario in ASl you can roll to change, so it is possible to make a choice for the scenario also for ply balance.

(sigh) first of all you did a bang up job on the map for Beast at Bay. I applaud you for the effort. I don't want to make this any more difficult than it already is, but quite frankly you do not understand the SSR for Beast at Bay. The SSR states that "Weather is Clear (the Mist Change DR is NA)" that part in the brackets means that you do NOT make any mist change dice rolls - therefore the scenario remains clear throughout. Furthermore under the mist change table there is a special rule "There is no Mist initially, but make Mist Change DR as per SSR KGP3 UNLESS the current CG Date is Dec 22 N or Later" Beast at Bay is dated 23 Dec and therefore falls under the UNLESS part of the special rule. This is why the NA (meaning Not Applicable) is tacked onto the mist rule.

As far as the map goes, you can do a hex by hex conversion - there is a way to do it by doing every other hex row then linking the center points of the hex rows you just did to form squares for the row in between.

The play balance in a Historical scenario is irrelevant because .... it is a Historical scenario, it is meant to be historically accurate not balanced. By the way, did you attack the Germans with a huge smoke barrage from the 81mm OBA? I should think the Americans could get plenty close to the Krauts if they did.

For play balance of other scenarios, well, some that are balanced in ASL may not be balanced in CM. However, the reverse may be true too - those that are not balanced in ASL may be balanced in CM - ya just don't know. Also, what may seem unbalanced to you may actually be balanced for players using a different style. You really can't make a determination of balance except through multiple playings where the results are posted to a place like the ASL crossroads.

It is true enough that the leaders etc are not possible to convert - naturally one has to make allowances for that.

[Purple4Ever]

Hi all,

I agree, in general, to ASL Veteran's comments.

I am in the midst of doing some conversions myself, and feel that it is important to stay as close as possible to the scenario - otherwise you might as well as call your scenario something else, and say "inspired by xxx ASL scenario".

I tried converting the Front Line Pub. HASL pack "Baraque de Fraiture".

After completing the map and then starting on the OB, I found that the M16 (aka Meat Chopper) and the M15 (37mm on HT) are not in CM!

To balance things out, I tried changing the American OB and then the German, and then the American, etc. until I gave up in disgust.

It became another scenario, another battle.

I didn't think I could do it justice w/out the M15/16's in the US OB.

So, it's on the back burner until (or if) BTS releases those two US vehicles.

Converting the ASL maps to CM is not without it's problems, however (for me, bridges are a real pain ).

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"The mass of the [Red] army stationed in Western Russia is to be destroyed in bold operations involving deep penetrations by armored spearheads, and the withdrawal of elements capable of combat into the extensive Russian land spaces is to be prevented.

By means of rapid pursuit a line is then to be reached from beyond which the Russian air force will no longer be capable of attacking the German home territories."

- - - Directive 21 "Fall Barbarossa"

[Teamski]

As an old Squad Leader gamer, my feeling is that ASL scenarios are pretty innacurate from the start, anyways. The geomorphic map boards comprimise the simulated battles becaues the actual terrain doesn't match what was there in the first place (excluding HASLs). That's what I love about CM is the fact that the actual area can be pretty accurately modeled with the editor(with a game system worthy of the effort for once).

I like to replay battles I've read about. But the ASL system can only generalize what was on hand. Try re-playing any of the battles in the book Book Night Drop, for example. The maps in the book do a good job of the local areas, but can you adequately remodel that on and ASL board? no. I feel that the era of the SL system is on it's way out, no matter how much I love it. With the CPU doing the hard stuff, there's no going back. The jobs done with the map boards are great as a walk down memory lane. But, I'm sure that there are a lot of Squad Leader players out there that are relieved that a game like CM came out.

I personally never liked the ASL system. Compared with the original SL, the idea of blowing so much money on "modules" when for $100, pretty much the whole TO&E was yours in SL. Add the outrageously unecessary new rules introduced, made the game a farce (residule firepower?, come on).

I hope that you guys don't think this is a flame, it's just my opinion.....

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"The Lieutenant brought his map out and the old woman pointed to the coastal town of Ravenoville........"

[Berlichtingen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As far as the map goes, you can do a hex by hex conversion - there is a way to do it by doing every other hex row then linking the center points of the hex rows you just did to form squares for the row in between.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The method I use, is create the map in VASL and take screenshots of it. I then put the screenshot together in Photoshop. I then delete all the hex lines. Then i overlay a CM square grid. Print that out and use it as a referance in the CM editor.

[ASL Veteran]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

As far as the map goes, you can do a hex by hex conversion - there is a way to do it by doing every other hex row then linking the center points of the hex rows you just did to form squares for the row in between.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The method I use, is create the map in VASL and take screenshots of it. I then put the screenshot together in Photoshop. I then delete all the hex lines. Then i overlay a CM square grid. Print that out and use it as a referance in the CM editor.

Sounds like a pretty accurate method. Have to admit that I've never played VASL - always had enough local opponents. Haven't tried any of your scenarios yet - although I've downloaded them. I don't have any of those scenarios to compare so I can't judge them. From the comments that I have seen you make though I am sure they are as accurate as can be. You strike me as a 'purist' like me In our 'gaming group' I was the holder of the sacred SL. I didn't buy ASL - my friend bought it and has every scenario ever published. Recently he has stopped buying them though because he feels that CM has made ASL obsolete. I only have the KGP module because I borrowed it from my friend.

[tailz]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Teamski:

I feel that the era of the SL system is on it's way out, no matter how much I love it. With the CPU doing the hard stuff, there's no going back. The jobs done with the map boards are great as a walk down memory lane. But, I'm sure that there are a lot of Squad Leader players out there that are relieved that a game like CM came out.

I personally never liked the ASL system. Compared with the original SL, the idea of blowing so much money on "modules" when for $100, pretty much the whole TO&E was yours in SL. Add the outrageously unecessary new rules introduced, made the game a farce (residule firepower?, come on).

I hope that you guys don't think this is a flame, it's just my opinion.....

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hear, hear... Our group's copies of the SL collection are positively dog eared and more faded than a Canadian.s uniform in Italy in '45. PC's games were just coming into their own when ASL came out, and there was just no justification financially to start over.

[Culex Pipiens]

(ASL Veteran)

ok perhaps i made a poet licence

in making the scenario, but if the problem is not to give the name of the original ASL scenario when you convert it (if is not similar in every aspect)call the scenario

"Mist at bay"

It is a joke!!, but remember i posted also the map and everybody can make the scenario he wants with it so can be more or less accurate in creating it.

(ASL Veteran)

The historical accuracy of the game is mediated with the play balance so the scenario represent a fraction of the forces in the field (as you know after the conquest of la Gleize about 70 tanks/spw/trucks ecc

were abandoned or captured )

if you make a "copy" of a scenario you can

adjust the forces in the field to fit the right (for you) balance.It is right that somebody dislike and can make is own adjustament. There is no "official bureau of translating ASL into CM " no official rules so everybody has its right way of making the scenarios.

one can be total bound of the original scenario (or what he thinks to be right ) or more elastic, it is the same, try to make fun with a great game CM.

(Purple4Ever)

I think that converting is not copying so if

you don't have the right units it is not a big problem, you can make a good scenario also if there are not one or two units in the OOB (i always say that the scenario is based on ASL....)

[Compassion]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Culex Pipiens:

(ASL Veteran)

ok perhaps i made a poet licence

in making the scenario, but if the problem is not to give the name of the original ASL scenario when you convert it (if is not similar in every aspect)call the scenario

"Mist at bay"

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or call it "Beyond Beast at Bay!"

[Dr. Brian]

I'm with ASL Vet and TankDawg on this. The conversion can never be the same... so a different name may be warranted altogether. THere may also be copyright issues involved as well.

Although to use the name "Mad Minute" for example, may be a coinky-dink, using all the OBs, with modifications, maps, etc, can be interpretated as a copyright violation.

And we know how AH and now MMP/Hasbro pursue with cease and desist.

(And God Bless Don Greenwood and BobMac for ASL)

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Doc

God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is!

[Spear]

Teamski wrote:

"I personally never liked the ASL system. Compared with the original SL, the idea of blowing so much money on "modules" when for $100, pretty much the whole TO&E was yours in SL. Add the outrageously unecessary new rules introduced, made the game a farce (residule firepower?, come on)."

I'm with you, Teamski! IMHO, Squad Leader reached its peak of fun and playability with Cross of Iron. It went downhill after that. I bought ASL and several of the modules, but the game is simply too complicated for my feeble brain. Now with CM, the computer takes care of remembering the rules for me!

[Runyan99]

I too agree with ASL Veteran. Most of the "translations" out there are too different from the original scenario. Most of them aren't even of the proper length (1 ASl turn = 2 CM turns). I like the idea of calling them something else when they differ significantly from the original scenario.

Berli and I have gotten together and have been creating the purest conversions that we have been able to do. I enjoy doing them because they are small, quick battles, which often times have an intense climactic conclusion at the end of the game. Also, they tend to focus on infantry tactics, and I think too many of the CM scenarios are won or lost by the armored units, IMHO. The included scenarios give the impression that the armor was involved in almost every battle on the West Front, which it certainly wasn't.

Admittedly, purely translated ASL scenarios are not the most historical scenarios out there. The ASL maps often times have an unnatural flatness. The imposed turn limit is "gamey" in many instances. ASL oobs may be quite innacurate in cases. Still, when done right, you get a challenging scenario in many cases. I see them almost as excercises or military "problems" to be worked out. I try to make them great little situations for PBEM play.

I want to mention a few of the big differences between ASL and CM which I have found require a little bit of creative license.

First, the oob is different. There are usually more soldiers running around in a CM conversion than was originally intended in the ASL scenario. For example, ASL has leaders, but CM has platoon and company level HQ units. CM is more historical in this instance. In our scenarios then, we add the HQ units above and beyond the ASL oob for the scenario (esentially ignoring the leader SMCs in ASL) although the number of regular squads is kept the same as in the original scenario. Team weapons, which are assumed to be carried by the squads in ASL, also must be added as individual units.

ASL often adds a silly number of LMGs to be carried by the squads, in addition to any organic LMGs which are assumed to be included in a squads firepower number. This has no basis in history that I can find. Often times it is even impossible to add the LMGs that ASL requires. For example, the US squad LMG, the BAR, cannot be added as an individual unit in CM. We have therefore chosen to ignore LMGs in the ASL oob in all cases.

Movement rates seem to be somewhat different in ASL and CM. One scenario I created required crossing units through a forested road and exiting them for points. Even at high speed, it was impossible for the british tanks in this scenario to cover the distance required. The scenario was scrapped.

Other than the items mentioned above, and occasional SSRs which are impossible to recreate in CM, I think you can do good translations of ASL scenarios, which purist gamers like ASL Veteran will recognize when they play.

Comments are welcome.

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"Artillery is a terrible thing. God, I hate it."

Pvt. David Webster

101st airborne 1942-45

[sneaky]

Spear,

You bet, COI just about did it for me. When I purchased anvil of victory, I thought, "when will it stop?".

I suggest those who would convert ASL/SL scenarios to CM use the maps from Klotz's area (I have them and I think they are great) and follow the OOB's perfectly. Then tweak the game to be balanced/playable in CM and let the purists be satisfied. We get two scenarios for the price of one, the purists get what they want (but maybe not) and everyone's happy.

The ASL/SL system was great for it's time. However, it is more accurately duplicated in SPWAW. IGOUGO, hexes, 2 minute turns, etc. I still like SPWAW but spend most of my time with CM. I know there are those who love the systems, but any paper and cardboard system today wastes more of my time than I want. Give me a computer that handles everything _better_ than any board game system and I'll be fine. That's what SPWAW and CM have done.

Sneaky