dalem Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 Yeah, I'm in a mood. With all the threads started by folks around here clamoring for this and that and 'I think it should be this way' and 'I would do it that way', I'm glad to state 'holy crap I'll be in a snit if anything is done that decreases Fog Of War!' I can do all the other crap that people seem to want in tons of other computer and table games - 100% hull down and don't shoot at this because it's not a valid target and roster my units for me and model these because twelve of them were made and I think they're cool and whatever else cranks people up. What I cannot do in any of these games is be deceived or misled or honestly worried about my flanks. The real groundbreaker of CM isn't the 3D modeling, it's the 'holy crap! what the heck was THAT' factor. CM isn't about fine control, it's about doing what you can with what you've got. Now that's a challenge. -dale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 Damn fine post dalem. I agree with you 100%. i think the "Where the hell did that come from' factor is what really makes this game shine. This is what keeps us on the edge of our seats... not that the Panther's armor is detailed to the Nth degree. Anything that would take ven a portion of the FOW would be a mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 Any here who have read my posts in the past know when it comes right down to it, I always side with the faction or idea or suggestion that increases the Fog of War (in any minor way) and increases the"'holy crap! what the heck was THAT' factor." More Terrain FOG and any other FOW we can get. More FOG I say! Go get 'em boys -tom w ------------------ <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> "Remember that no dumb bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." G. S. Patton <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 08-24-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddball_E8 Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 *stands up applauding* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AR Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 Give the people some fog!!! ------------------ It gets better each time as long as it's never with the same woman. Al Bundy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goofy Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 Yep, those empty trucks look like halftracks on the "Sound Contact". I also like the way ALL German tanks are "Tiger?" just the way most Allies saw them! ------------------ Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WineCape Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 Brilliant thread and well put. It is what Charles and Steve at BTS called lateral thinking with the material/men/AFV etc. that you have at your disposal with there inherent weaknesses and strengths! Charl Theron Stellenbosch, South Africa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiram Sedai Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 Amen! I love that I can be suprised and not know exactly what I am fighting against. Its like really being in the woods fighting against OPFOR. ------------------ -Work Hard -Type Fast -Save Often Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daveman Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 Here here! My first experience with the game was the lowly tutorial... I confidently pulled my two Shermans over the ridge (per the manual guide) and lost *both* to unseen PzIVs in one turn. I was terrified and amazed all at once. ------------------ "You know our standing orders. Out of ammo become a bunker, out of commission become a pillbox, out of time... become heroes." - The Beast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Shaw Posted August 24, 2000 Share Posted August 24, 2000 I'm in the midst of a PBEM with Mark Ezra in which a M8 GMC was misreported to me as a normal Stuart. I discovered my mistake, eventually killed the silly thing and moved on. Now, some turns later, I see another "Stuart" and do I think "Golly, that might be another M8 GMC instead of a Stuart."? NO, I think, "Golly, that's a Stuart, I can kill a Stuart and don't have to worry because he only has a crummy 37mm." I'm constantly amazed at how well the misreporting feature works, not just as a visual gimmick, but at a subconcious level. The FOW is tremendous. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banshee Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 Yeah what was BTS thinking when adding FOW! It ruins everything, especially my carefully planned attack when a 88mm was identified as a IG and nobody noticed the MG bunker right behind it! Thanks for the great game BTS ------------------ Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfe Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I also like the way ALL German tanks are "Tiger?"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually, most of the Panzer IV's I've seen misidentified are mistaken as Panthers. Though I did see both a Panzer IV and a 251/1 HT identified as a Lynx "Light Tank?" in the same game! I shamefully had my Greyhound running away from what turned out to be a halftrack. - Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GI Tom Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 I can't even begin to count how many times I've replayed things going..."WTF?!" Being afraid of moving, of not moving. All are experiences that you probably have in the "real deal". Excellent post. Well put. FOW is awesome. My wife is beginning to hate FOW. Why?? Because I have actually made her help me on occasion to see if she can see where the damn shot(s) came from. GI Tom ------------------ To a New Yorker like you, a hero is some type of wierd sandwich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted August 26, 2000 Share Posted August 26, 2000 Still a great thread Back to the top -tom w ------------------ <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> "Remember that no dumb bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." G. S. Patton <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalem Posted August 26, 2000 Author Share Posted August 26, 2000 Well, I was rather cranky when I posted, but the sentiment is valid. Thanks for the feedback, all. -dale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted September 6, 2000 Share Posted September 6, 2000 Great Thread Back to the Top BTTT -tom w ------------------ <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> "Following are opinions (very abridged because of the size of this post) of members of the 66th and 67th Armored Regiments and 2nd Armored Division: The consensus of opinion of all personnel in the 66th Armored Regiment is that the German tank and anti-tank weapons are far superior to the American in the following categories. Superior Flotation. Greater mobility. This is directly contrary to the popular opinion that the heavy tank is slow and cumbersome. The German guns have a much higher muzzle velocity and no telltale flash. The resulting flat trajectory gives great penetration and is very accurate. The 90-mm, although an improvement, is not as good as either the 75 or 88. If HVAP ammunition becomes available, it will improve the performance of both the 76-mm and 90-mm guns. German tank sights are definitely superior to American sights. These, combined with the flat trajectory of the guns, give great accuracy. German tanks have better sloped armor and a better silhouette than the American tanks. The M24 tank has not been available long, but has created a very favorable impression. The M4 has been proven inferior to the German Mark VI in Africa before the invasion of Sicily, 10 July 1943. " -Brigadier General J. H. Collier, Commanding Combat Command "A" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abbott Posted September 6, 2000 Share Posted September 6, 2000 Give me fog! I have never played a game of CM, demo included without the full FOW setting. Is there another setting? If so why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GIJim Posted September 6, 2000 Share Posted September 6, 2000 without fog of war it might as well be battle-chess. Sure it can be fun, but not thrilling ------------------ A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week. George S. Patton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moriarty Posted September 6, 2000 Share Posted September 6, 2000 Dale, with an attitude like that, you're a candidate for the Cesspool ... if you can taunt and take a taunt, that is. ------------------ "Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?" — Oddball "Crap." — Moriarty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzvg Posted September 6, 2000 Share Posted September 6, 2000 Real life (well training life anyway) illustration of FOW at work. Once upon a last decade, I and others in the loose gaggle known as ground support platoon,Bravo company,1st support battalion, were on an FTX (field tactical exercise) in the woods around weisbaden, We were told to expect a platoon to company sized probe of our positions towards dawn, but were also told that we would be getting support from HQ platoon,B/1. Dawn, heavy fog,line of sight measured in inches, sounds of movement to our front, we go to ground, prepare to engage, where the hell are the Headshed guys? Firing breaks out to our right rear, What the hell? The sounds in front stop as the unseen troops go to ground,we hold our fire,not wanting to give away our position in the murk, the firing to our rear dies down, 2 minutes go by. We hear movement from the rear to our left, "right on, hq got the lead out" the sounds peter off into the mist, no sound or movement from the unseen enemy to our front. Epilogue: When the sun burned away the fog, we found ourselves face-to-face with the HQ platoon, which had come out to strengthan our position,got lost, went beyond the perimeter,and came wandering back. The OPFOR were the cause of the firing to our rear, they had wandered through the gap left by the lost HQ platoon, and stumbled around INSIDE our perimeter until they brushed up against the motor park, where the heavy junk guys engaged them,the sounds after the firefight were the OPFOR platoon withdrwaing the same way they came in. How's that for fog of war? ------------------ Pzvg "Confucious say, it is better to remain silent, and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalem Posted September 6, 2000 Author Share Posted September 6, 2000 Moriarty- Is the 'cesspool' the Peng-Challenge megathread? I haven't checked it out in awhile, myself. Maybe I'm ready for a PBEM after all.... -dale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted September 6, 2000 Share Posted September 6, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dalem: Moriarty- Is the 'cesspool' the Peng-Challenge megathread? I haven't checked it out in awhile, myself. Maybe I'm ready for a PBEM after all.... -dale<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That's the one. While I am here. I had this loony idea of having a random setting for forces and month (like we now have for time of day and weather) for quick battles. They would be like a box of chocolate, you would never know what you get. More importantly, you would never know what your opponent has. You would still be able to buy your own forces, but the points would be randomly allocated. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalem Posted September 6, 2000 Author Share Posted September 6, 2000 Andreas- I too would love to have all factors randomizable. In the Ancient Beforetimes of the Distant Past, when me and my buddy had just Squad Leader, we'd do our scenarios as follows: 1. Place ALL counters in box top. 2. Grab a handful of counters, deposit on smooth surface, opponent does same. 3. Pick Allied side (i.e. decide on Russian or American). 4. Go through your 'handful' and pick out all counters of each side. 5. Consolidate 'sides' so now there are two piles of counters - one German, one Allied. 6. Roll for boards and placement. 7. Either roll for or pick sides, decide on or roll for Attacker/Defender, etc. This was our 'Handful Method' of scenario generation. For an ambitious afternoon, we'd do the 'Double Handful' method. Led to some interesting battles. -dale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turret Ring Posted September 8, 2000 Share Posted September 8, 2000 dalem....I agree. Good point. I played CM for about 3 weeks with no FOW until I felt fairly comfortable with all the mechanics and basic tactical considerations. Then I started to play with partial FOW and it felt like a whole, newly enhansed game. I'm looking forward to graduating to the full FOW setting at sometime in the future. ------------------ "Then we shall fight in the shade." (Greek general's comment upon being told that the Persian archers could blot-out the sun with their arrows.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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