SU 100 - Spotting

[CanuckGamer]

We are playing Rites of Spring where I as the Russians have SU-100's.  I've  lost a lot of them to German MK IVs and most times I can't even see where the shooting MK IV is.  I'm wondering if the SU 100 has a lower spotting capability because of it's lower profile.  In addition, because it doesn't have a turret it is not possible to have the commander spot like you can when you open up for a tank that has a turret.  I would have thought the lower profile would make it more difficult to be spotted as well.

[Anthony P.]

My anecdotal finding is that all Soviet AFVs appear to have lower quality optics as compared to German AFVs, so that could explain part of the issue.

SU-100s however definitely have a commander's hatch which can be opened for him to gain better situational awareness. Typically I try augmenting this with a scout team mounted on back of the tank to help him with spotting, to make up for the inferior Soviet optics.

[Erwin]

My question is whether it was standard for the Soviets to have the commander unbuttoned as it was for the Germans?  If the Soviet SOP was to be buttoned then are we unbalancing the game by having them act like Germans?  Or, does the game give the Soviets a poorer spotting capability regardless of being unbuttoned or not?

[Halmbarte]

When playing the Sov I generally have the recon guys unbuttoned. If I'm using tank destroyers or tanks for recon I'll unbutton them.

If they are the follow on forces I'll generally leave them buttoned up. Either way I tend not to try to force them to unbutton manually. 

H

[Redwolf]

I place sharpshooters on top of these tanks.

[Anthony P.]

18 hours ago, Erwin said:

My question is whether it was standard for the Soviets to have the commander unbuttoned as it was for the Germans?  If the Soviet SOP was to be buttoned then are we unbalancing the game by having them act like Germans?  Or, does the game give the Soviets a poorer spotting capability regardless of being unbuttoned or not?

I'd say it depends on. Soviet doctrine absolutely was "fight buttoned up"... but that doesn't mean the Joes doing the fighting weren't capable of determining what actually worked out in practice and what worked better in manuals. I read wartime recollections of an Su-76 commander a few years ago, and he discussed this specific topic. What he'd been taught in training was that the commander should always use the periscope, but he soon understood that the old hands in his crew advising him that he really ought to just stand up above the armour plating and use his binoculars if he wanted his SPG to actually hit anything were right.

The notion that Red Army TCs religiously buttoned up instead of getting outside and using their binoculars even when fighting tanks at range isn't reasonable just based on the fact that it would've been obvious that doing so would not be conductive to surviving against an enemy TC actually unbuttoning while you yourself stayed inside a cramped fighting compartment and peering through narrow, dirty, un-magnified vision slits.

I make an exception when it comes to Cold War tanks and only peer out occasionally when closer than 1km simply because the crew becomes very handicapped if the TC is hit, as well as the role play aspect (official doctrine is less likely to be flaunted only a few days into a conflict than it is several years in).

Edited January 28 by Anthony P.

[Halmbarte]

You can turn it around too.

Use MGs and mortars to get the German TCs to button up and take away that advantage. If you manage to plink a TC or three it's a bonus. 

H

[Brille]

Just a quick note:

In this battle most of the german Panzers are veteran with +2 leadership, while the soviets are mostly regular with +1 leadership. And while this sounds not like much it can give the germans an clear edge in spotting, especially if they keep their heads outside the hatch while the soviets may not.

Truth be told the soviets should have the advantage since they are defending so they are usually static, while the germans have to move. But it is too complicated to get more into detail with the provided information.

 

I played this map not so long ago as the germans and was totally hammered by the soviet player, who also fielded SU100 (besides other). They were totally frightening as my poor Panzer IVs  didn´t seem to be able to penetrate them up front.

[chuckdyke]

A Cannon Fodder Scout Team improves the spotting ability of an SU by 30% according a tester on this forum.

[Chibot Mk IX]

75mm/50 degree

that is a very thick front face to 75mm/L48. Even Panther will have a difficult to penetrate the front if the SU-100 face in an angle.

[Bulletpoint]

[Erwin]

Thank you for reposting the spotting chart. Very useful.

[Anthony P.]

On 1/28/2024 at 12:16 PM, Redwolf said:

I place sharpshooters on top of these tanks.

On 1/29/2024 at 5:32 AM, chuckdyke said:

A Cannon Fodder Scout Team improves the spotting ability of an SU by 30% according a tester on this forum.

I saw this and immediately thought of this thread again:

 

It seems we can actually cite historical precendence for tankers mounting grunts (that came out wrong) on their tanks for spotting!

[Freyberg]

One advantage with the heavier Soviet TDs, I'm guessing that they were designed for, is that you don't need to get a perfect spot of a Pz4, Stug or even a Panther - if you have partial spotting, a high velocity 100mm HE, or the heavy 122mm (long barrel) HE has enough power to damage or kill, so you don't need AP and hence don't need a clear spot. Even a near miss can immobilise or force them to back up.

Soviet armour is not a precision weapon, but it was never meant to be - just beautiful crude force.