Combat Mission Grand Tournament

[Andrew Kulin]

3 hours ago, Holien said:

Thanks for the response, not sure what 3-1 outcomes mean?

I understand that the CM games have no means to provide accurate interim scoring (such as final game scoring type scores) to the Matrix server.  so as a workaround they award scores of 3-1 when there are casualties in a turn, with the person whose side gets "more" casualties against their opponent getting a 3, and the opponent gets a 1.  If no casualties at all in a turn then it is 0-0.  No idea what happens if a tie (e.g., 1 soldier per side is a casualty).  If it scores 1-1 or 0-0 or if infantry units also can score higher than one another (e.g., Regular BTN CO is KIA, vs green private KIA so BTN HQ is worth more points internally, therefore the other side wins that round 3-1).  If you look at the tournament scoring you will see all the low scoring game scores between opponents can be calculated by various combos of 3-1 and 1-3.  So for example in my CMCW match with gkersh I am currently down 10-14 in one game and up 22-10 in the other.  Meaning in first game I won two turns and lost four with all others being ties.  So scoring is 2 x (3-1) = (6-2) + 4 x (1-3) = (4-12) with overall total = (10-14).  In the other game I won seven turns and lost one.

This "3-1" scoring system does not factor into the final score (which is the BFC final scores you see on end game screen).  It is just for fun during the tournament as BFC Elvis told me.

You are therefore better to ceasefire as you will get whatever type of BFC score would show up on their final game screen when you ceasefire in game considering total points in most these matches are on order of 2,000 or so per scenario.  So maybe you get 334 points.  That would be better than 78 points that might be showing on screen with the 3-1 system.  And if you (both) don't ceasefire then the game never ends, and Matrix's server has no way of knowing what the "real" score is, so you are stuck with whatever just for fun (3-1 system) points that Matrix has on their system.

But if you cannot communicate with your oppo, and he is not returning turns or is not aware of this then I am afraid you are pooched.

[Holien]

Thanks Andrew,

I have found a way within in Slitherine system to e-mail the oppo I hope he picks up and sees my e-mail.

We are averaging a turn a day and have I think 16 left to do plus or minus so it seems like we will have to do a CF...

This really does need to be clearly stated in the Tourney text if it is not there?

[ALBY]

The scoresheet for this tournament on the slitherine site is interesting.  It appears that number one received two surrenders and that probably 12 or 13 games will not even start. Of the games that are going, very few are going to finish without ceasefires. 
 

I reckon most of the field will be eliminated from overall contention by either no shows or slow play. 
 

 

[ALBY]

I must say, I love the scenario valley of ashes, but there is a lot do and not a lot of time. I think it’s one of the slower playing scenarios due to size and the number of commands required each turn. It’s likely too big for a tournament where the majority of players are so uncommitted.

[Andrew Kulin]

5 hours ago, ALBY said:

The scoresheet for this tournament on the slitherine site is interesting.  It appears that number one received two surrenders and that probably 12 or 13 games will not even start. Of the games that are going, very few are going to finish without ceasefires. 

I looked at that yesterday and on average 30% of the participants are at 0 points (25-37% in the three tournaments).  But that does not mean that 30% are no shows.  I know for certain two of the players that show at points in some of the three tournaments I have played against in one of these tournaments (BFC Elvis and gkersh) are very good at returning turns and so in those other tourneys, they are not the ones at fault.

My recommendation to those who are frustrated by their opponents having ghosted them is to let BFC Elvis know this.

5 hours ago, ALBY said:

I must say, I love the scenario valley of ashes, but there is a lot do and not a lot of time. I think it’s one of the slower playing scenarios due to size and the number of commands required each turn. It’s likely too big for a tournament where the majority of players are so uncommitted.

I totally agree.  I don't see how anyone could even hope to meet Soviet objectives in the 40 minutes given the schedule the forces arrive at during the scenario and the distances involved.  I have just begun a charge towards the first objective with about 12-14 minutes game time remaining as it took that long to get my forces "organized" and in "position".  And already getting pasted by the US side as soon as I get out in the open.

[Artkin]

Yeah never got to play that one. My opponent no-showed with no way to contact them

[Andrew Kulin]

32 minutes ago, Artkin said:

Yeah never got to play that one. My opponent no-showed with no way to contact them

And there's the rub.  No way to contact your opponent.  BFC Elvis has made it clear they will not provide e-mails for opponents in these tournaments (due to privacy concerns/laws I imagine). 

We either have to get lucky and be up against someone who has a BFC Forum Account that we can message, or one in Slitherine that:

a) - they check for messages

b) - you can actually get your message to even send to them in the first place (I had some early success sending messages via Slitherine forum messaging to my CMRT opponent - but messages after we started never left the out-box, so he never received them to even reply back).  So the Slitherine messaging system is glitchy from my experience.

I wonder if in subsequent tournaments that BFC makes a statement that anyone signing up for the tournament automatically consents to having their e-mail shared with their opponent.  That it is a condition of participation.

[Jackal2100]

Yes, the lack of communication or the possibility of communication with two of my three opponents has been extremely frustrating. Luckily two of the three sets has moved along at speed, but one I don't think I'll finish, and I don't know if my opponent knows we need to do a ceasefire. If he doesn't, then we both lose a large percentage of points. Maybe creating an automatic ceasefire for games that have progressed a certain amount at the end of the round so each side gets something for the trouble.

[ALBY]

I did a lot or iracing back when I was driving and one of the things they did to clean up their races and sort out the riff raff was to require licenses.  

I’m not sure what the CM equivalent would be.  However, we are at least gaining a track record and data that can be used to refine the match ups.
 

Good luck fixing this friends.

[Holien]

@BFCElvis

Hi not sure if you have seen the thread lately and could I suggest an e-mail is sent to all players a couple of days before the end of round one.

Along the lines of

Dear Player you might not be aware of the scoring system being used which means that if the scenario has not been completed it is in both players interest to take the Ceasefire Option before the end of the round at 08:00 UTC 25-10-2023.

BOTH Players need to have taken the Cease Fire option and turns processed for this to take effect and for Both players to score maxium points.

 

Of course if the files can be processed as an assumed Cease fire by the system then no need, but I bet that has not been coded so it is at least fair to warn everyone via the e-mail reminder.

Just my 2p...

Also please can we update any new Tourney invites text to clearly explain how scoring works if the scenario is not completed by the end of the round?

[Holien]

15 hours ago, Andrew Kulin said:

And there's the rub.  No way to contact your opponent.  BFC Elvis has made it clear they will not provide e-mails for opponents in these tournaments (due to privacy concerns/laws I imagine). 

We either have to get lucky and be up against someone who has a BFC Forum Account that we can message, or one in Slitherine that:

a) - they check for messages

b) - you can actually get your message to even send to them in the first place (I had some early success sending messages via Slitherine forum messaging to my CMRT opponent - but messages after we started never left the out-box, so he never received them to even reply back).  So the Slitherine messaging system is glitchy from my experience.

I wonder if in subsequent tournaments that BFC makes a statement that anyone signing up for the tournament automatically consents to having their e-mail shared with their opponent.  That it is a condition of participation.

 

I am not sure Elvis can do anything about players not undertaking turns. I think it would need coding and I bet that has not been done.

With FOG2 the system assess who has not sent turns in a timely manner and awards points to the player that has. For those not aware of how FOG2 handles it here is the standard text for every tourney.

https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=113282

Quote

Any battles that are not completed by the end of the round will be timed out. The player who has had the game in his “My Turns” box the longest overall will be the one who is deemed to be timed out. This will not normally incur any penalties, unless insufficient turns have been played: If the timed-out player has played less than 18 turns, his score will be reduced proportionately, and his opponent will be granted (100 - the timed out player's adjusted score) if this value exceeds his current score. (This means he will get the full BYE score unless the timed out player's adjusted score is more than 25).

If the timed-out player has played less than 6 turns, he will not be included in the draw for the next round. This is to prevent someone else’s enjoyment being spoiled by being drawn against someone who has apparently dropped out of the tournament.

While this is not perfect as folk in the wrong time zone can have more time clocked against them it does at least keep those who send turns back quickly in with a chance of getting into the top group of players. I would hope that Battlefront would do something similar if at all possible?

As for the Slitherine message system it does work but only if the oppo has it set up to forward e-mails to them or they bother to check the forum system. As many folk don't even know there is a forum message system this is why it does not work.

Look on the top right of the Slitherine Forum page to see notifications and messages. As the person playing has set up a Slitherine user name you can try and contact them that way.

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Holien

[Andrew Kulin]

1 hour ago, Holien said:

As for the Slitherine message system it does work but only if the oppo has it set up to forward e-mails to them or they bother to check the forum system. As many folk don't even know there is a forum message system this is why it does not work.

Yes.  I did not realize that until someone told me specifically.  There is a messaging account under your Slitherine account.  And there is a separate messaging system under the Slitherine forums which is the one to use.  You have to go into the Slitherine forums and log in from the forums for messaging.  I still find that glitchy though.

[BFCElvis]

6 hours ago, Holien said:

 

I am not sure Elvis can do anything about players not undertaking turns. I think it would need coding and I bet that has not been done.

 

No. There is nothing that we can do. There have been TONS of conversations about this with Slitherine and, for the most part, all of their tournaments experience it. So more than others. The Field of Glory 2 leaderboards look like our but the Panzer Corps 2 and Valor & Victory boards don't.

Quote

With FOG2 the system assess who has not sent turns in a timely manner and awards points to the player that has. For those not aware of how FOG2 handles it here is the standard text for every tourney.

https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=113282

While this is not perfect as folk in the wrong time zone can have more time clocked against them it does at least keep those who send turns back quickly in with a chance of getting into the top group of players. I would hope that Battlefront would do something similar if at all possible?

As for the Slitherine message system it does work but only if the oppo has it set up to forward e-mails to them or they bother to check the forum system. As many folk don't even know there is a forum message system this is why it does not work.

Look on the top right of the Slitherine Forum page to see notifications and messages. As the person playing has set up a Slitherine user name you can try and contact them that way.

I'll check with Slitherine but this does look like somefink that may be possible. The "timer" for how long a player has had a file is somefink that their server would know. 

Giving emails are a definite no-no. Having players opt in to have their emails given is unlikely too. 

On October 11th all players were sent a "nudge" email. It was sent to everyone. How many of you saw it? Mine ended up in my Gmail "Promotions" section, which might as well be the spam folder. I didn't see it until I dug deep for it. That is one path we're trying to jog some people loose.

Adding both the scoring/ceasefire information and needing to make sure that you use the correct email address when logging into the server through CM will future instructions. 

[Holien]

15 hours ago, BFCElvis said:

On October 11th all players were sent a "nudge" email. It was sent to everyone. How many of you saw it? Mine ended up in my Gmail "Promotions" section, which might as well be the spam folder. I didn't see it until I dug deep for it. That is one path we're trying to jog some people loose.

Adding both the scoring/ceasefire information and needing to make sure that you use the correct email address when logging into the server through CM will future instructions. 

Great a reminder e-mail on Monday would be very useful and could really help folk especially if it clearly lays out why doing a Cease Fire will help both players.

BTW - I got the other e-mail and yes some folk won't get it or even act on it but the 80/20 rule applies and even in worse case 20% of those getting the e-mail will be in a better position or it could be 80%.

So worth doing please...

Cheers

[BFCElvis]

6 hours ago, Holien said:

Great a reminder e-mail on Monday would be very useful and could really help folk especially if it clearly lays out why doing a Cease Fire will help both players.

BTW - I got the other e-mail and yes some folk won't get it or even act on it but the 80/20 rule applies and even in worse case 20% of those getting the e-mail will be in a better position or it could be 80%.

So worth doing please...

Cheers

I will ask but I think that it is unlikely. Slitherine is very sensitive about appearing to spam their customer base. When discussions were done with the nudge email they agreed to one nudge email per round. 

[Holien]

Pity as it is super crucial information that if not communicated will affect the enjoyment of the customers playing the tournament.

Without that information some players might not feel like it is worth continuing.

FOG2 uses tournaments to drive up player engagement and they seem to have a gold standard of how they clearly communicate the scoring and way the tournament works.

Anyway all I can do is flag the issue.

Cheers 

[ALBY]

Score wise, it’s easy to get a ZERO for Soviets as their objectives are terrain based.

The leaders after this round will be those that have the no-show bonus. 
 

I fought hard for my measly 829 points. But we had to quit at minute 30 due to time constraints. 

[eniced73]

Am I correct to get a 2000 or 2050 in the CMCW games  one has to have a forefit?  So, the top guy here is numero uno because his opponent quit both games?  

 

	Heckkler	4050 *	4050 *
	cargol	2660 *	2660 *
	syleril	2150 *	2150 *
4	der_butschi	2099 *	2099 *
5	DeiniolSpangle	2062 *	2062 *
6	pbem_ratdeath	2050 *	2050 *
6	pugstorm	2050 *	2050 *
8	longbow501	1752 *	1752 *
9	pulemetmaxim	975 *	975 *
10	DALBY	829 *	829 *
11	astrokitty	695 *	695 *
12	eniced73	571 *	571 *

[BFCElvis]

8 hours ago, eniced73 said:

Am I correct to get a 2000 or 2050 in the CMCW games  one has to have a forefit?  So, the top guy here is numero uno because his opponent quit both games?  

 

	Heckkler	4050 *	4050 *
	cargol	2660 *	2660 *
	syleril	2150 *	2150 *
4	der_butschi	2099 *	2099 *
5	DeiniolSpangle	2062 *	2062 *
6	pbem_ratdeath	2050 *	2050 *
6	pugstorm	2050 *	2050 *
8	longbow501	1752 *	1752 *
9	pulemetmaxim	975 *	975 *
10	DALBY	829 *	829 *
11	astrokitty	695 *	695 *
12	eniced73	571 *	571 *

Correct. They would have to have surrendered both battles. 

[BFCElvis]

21 hours ago, Holien said:

Pity as it is super crucial information that if not communicated will affect the enjoyment of the customers playing the tournament.

Without that information some players might not feel like it is worth continuing.

FOG2 uses tournaments to drive up player engagement and they seem to have a gold standard of how they clearly communicate the scoring and way the tournament works.

Anyway all I can do is flag the issue.

Cheers 

I've been working them all morning. They haven't said "no" yet.

[Holien]

20 minutes ago, BFCElvis said:

I've been working them all morning. They haven't said "no" yet.

Thanks it's a limited number of customers and hopefully not seen as spam.

Fingers crossed

[A Canadian Cat]

On 10/21/2023 at 7:26 AM, Andrew Kulin said:

Yes.  I did not realize that until someone told me specifically.  There is a messaging account under your Slitherine account.  And there is a separate messaging system under the Slitherine forums which is the one to use.  You have to go into the Slitherine forums and log in from the forums for messaging.  I still find that glitchy though.

My bold - did you mean the Matrix forum?

The trouble is that you can have an account to enter the tournament without having a forum account. This means that there are tournament payers who are not on the forums at all. Add to that lots of players either never check or don't respond to DMs. It's pretty easy to have no way to contact opponents at all let alone a reliable way.

[Andrew Kulin]

Ian, I was referring to Slitherine.  So there is messaging on Slitherine web-site to which I cannot initiate any messages.  I think that account is only used to tell me that I have incoming turns and general messages from Slitherine.  And then there is a separate messaging function in the Slitherine forum which I can initiate and receive messages (glitchy though in my experience).

But Matrix site looks same as Slitherine (blue colour scheme instead of green though).  So when I log in to Matrix, the messaging is same thing like Slitherine - can only receive messages about incoming turn and the like.  I have never checked Matrix forum to see if I have a separate account (frankly I don't remember if I set one up or not for their forums) nor have I checked it has a separate messaging system like Slitherine forums (I suspect it does since they seem to be pretty much identically set up).  Plus then there is something with Slitherine/Matrix that lets you do a single or combined login to all their accounts (or something like that).

If this all sounds confusing to someone w/o a Matrix or Slitherine account set up, yes it is.  Basically four separate logins, or is it maybe one if you say yes to the unified login system (or whatever they call it).  It's really too confusing to me.  To the point that I really don't care to try to figure it out.

Bottom line in my opinion is that player to player communication does not work with the current implementation of Combat Mission and PBEM++ in tournaments.

 

Oh, and kind of a related question.  What does the check box for making your e-mail visible to your opponent in PBEM++ games actually do? (the one you need to remember to check on as you are first logging into the PBEM++ system).  I have never received or seen anything about my opponents' e-mails in playing PBEM++ games so far (that I can tell).

 

[eniced73]

19 hours ago, ALBY said:

Score wise, it’s easy to get a ZERO for Soviets as their objectives are terrain based.

The leaders after this round will be those that have the no-show bonus. 
 

I fought hard for my measly 829 points. But we had to quit at minute 30 due to time constraints. 

Excuse my ignorance but I have been out of the CM game for awhile.  I know this is not their first rodeo on CM tournaments but how is this scoring system legit?  My opponent, @pulemet_maxim, played a hell of a game.  Looking at this, I should have surrendered both my games to give him a better score.  I understand punishing players because of "other" players sucks but rewarding them like this is worse.  You guys need to adjust this before next round starts.  I would say 1/4th of the points rewarded.  500 per game.  That would keep this close and not discourage guys that played good games.

How does that 2050-2050 score work??  Both guys decided they could not play the round so they each forfeit a game to get max points?  

 

 

 

[ratdeath]

1 hour ago, eniced73 said:

Excuse my ignorance but I have been out of the CM game for awhile.  I know this is not their first rodeo on CM tournaments but how is this scoring system legit?  My opponent, @pulemet_maxim, played a hell of a game.  Looking at this, I should have surrendered both my games to give him a better score.  I understand punishing players because of "other" players sucks but rewarding them like this is worse.  You guys need to adjust this before next round starts.  I would say 1/4th of the points rewarded.  500 per game.  That would keep this close and not discourage guys that played good games.

How does that 2050-2050 score work??  Both guys decided they could not play the round so they each forfeit a game to get max points?  

 

 

 

No, both of us did quite well as the Americans and failed miserably as the soviets. Pugstorm did throw in the towel earlier than me as the Soviet side, I tried to get a tank (suicide mission) into the town but they got massacred on their way there and eventually had no forces left to do anything with and surrendered.