Combat Mission Grand Tournament

[Heckkler]

6 hours ago, Suzuya said:

Just for my opponents in round 2 Pugstrom, Vampiro & Hekkler sorry if there is a delay starting i am going to be in and out of town for a couple of days not a no show just poor timing on the 2nd rounds start for me will get the games started when i can.

No worries I'm glad you said something as both my opponents last round were let downs. I'm also not sure why but in the games where my opponents surrendered even though I pressed end game they counted as timed outs which it didn't before round 2 ended. Including cmcw where my opponent surrendered both matches with in 3 turns. Which is funny because now with round 1 over they have 1000 points and I have 1333. With so many no shows and people purposely not cease firing there should be some kind of reputation system for the match making. My other opponent stopped playing because it didn't look good for them with only a hand full of turns left.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Heckkler

[Holien]

22 minutes ago, Heckkler said:

people purposely not cease firing

Folk did not know that they had to Ceasefire...

You will always get a % of no shows. The 80/20 rule...

An oppo stopping turns as they start to lose is not great and the CM system of scoring points will always fail to deal with such problems. There is a bit of mitigation with the chess clock system showing they (if they did) wasted more time...

 

[Andrew Kulin]

1 hour ago, Heckkler said:

My other opponent stopped playing because it didn't look good for them with only a hand full of turns left.

Was his formal name "Richard"?

[BFCElvis]

6 hours ago, Andrew Kulin said:

Looking forward to an explanation from Elvis as to how the first round scores were calculated.  Some big shakeups in the scoring I see this morning on the Matrix Tournament sites.

I see the adjustments that were made on the server end of the scoring were very helpful, in my opinion.

I haven't forgotten you folks today. I've been working on getting easy to understand and explain descriptions of exactly what was done. The time zone difference didn't help with the back and forth conversations. As soon as get somefink worth passing on I will. It's a priority for me. 

[eniced73]

10 hours ago, Jackal2100 said:

I'm very confused. On the Red Thunder set of matches, it shows that one of my games timed out when I had finished both games with my opponent several days before the round was over, and the scoring was changed because of it.

My CMBN games were both in my opponents hands.  Nothing in my box yet scores for CMBN and CMRT show I timed out??  Got screwed because I sent both my opponents multiple PM's here and on Matrix and neither CF to finish the game.  So, am I reading this right that three of the four turns were waiting on me?? 

 

I thought an email stating everyone must CF was going to be sent out?  I never seen one unless I missed it.  

Divadov

13 ^T

377

390

eniced73

366

24 ^T

390

hel45

435

464

899

eniced73

11 ^T

8 ^T

19

Edited October 26, 2023 by eniced73

[Holien]

5 hours ago, eniced73 said:

So, am I reading this right that three of the four turns were waiting on me??

No a T means the game didn't complete and of the two players the one who had the turns in his inbox the longest is deemed to have been the slowest player and penalised. 

Think of it like a chess clock, the time is running down against you as soon as the turn lands in your mailbox. 

It's not great but it's the only metric that can easily be applied to assess who should get points if a game doesn't complete. 

So yes the turn could be awaiting your opponents response, but overall the amount of time has been greater in your inbox than your opponents.

Elvis is no doubt wrestling with a decent explanation of this, I will see if I can lift some text from the FOG2 forums to help explain.

[Jackal2100]

That doesn't make sense @Holien, as I was given a T penalty for a game that was finished, and that I couldn't press end turn on even if I wanted to.

[Holien]

8 minutes ago, Jackal2100 said:

That doesn't make sense @Holien, as I was given a T penalty for a game that was finished, and that I couldn't press end turn on even if I wanted to.

What I said might not cover your issue? If the game was truly completed by both players then no T should IMO have been issued.

There might be a bug or an unintended consequence of what has been implemented with the CM game family.

I would wait until Elvis has the time to explain it from his POV.

BTW did you see the final results screen?

[Jackal2100]

Yeah, I screenshotted both end screens for RT portion, which is the one that had the issue.

Edit: I'm sorry if I'm being difficult, I just want to understand how this system works as it feels a little labyrinthine.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Jackal2100
Expansion of idea

[eniced73]

8 hours ago, Holien said:

No a T means the game didn't complete and of the two players the one who had the turns in his inbox the longest is deemed to have been the slowest player and penalised. 

Think of it like a chess clock, the time is running down against you as soon as the turn lands in your mailbox. 

It's not great but it's the only metric that can easily be applied to assess who should get points if a game doesn't complete. 

So yes the turn could be awaiting your opponents response, but overall the amount of time has been greater in your inbox than your opponents.

Elvis is no doubt wrestling with a decent explanation of this, I will see if I can lift some text from the FOG2 forums to help explain.

So, they were able to implement this into round one?  Would be curious to see the penalty to each score explained.  Makes sense if one is returning every 3 days while the other player every day.  Otherwise a bad time zone matchup could skew times for one and not the other, no?

[eniced73]

I am trying to fully understand the scoring system being used here.  I know an explanation is being worked on but figured someone smarter than me might have already figured it out.  I am seeing 10 or 11 scores that are all the same.  Were all these games surrenders, no shows, or something else?  I am guessing they are all the same scenario being all scores are exactly the same.  

 

[Holien]

1 hour ago, eniced73 said:

Otherwise a bad time zone matchup could skew times for one and not the other, no?

Yes, but there is usually enough time to complete the game. So it should be possible if both players return the turns quickly, even with the time zone issues.

If you can think of a better system then suggest away...

The current implementation for FOG2 has been in place for many years and whilst not perfect it works.

[Heckkler]

There has to be a bug as my opponent surrendered both games I saw the end screen in both of them and they received 1000 points and I received 1333.

[Vacillator]

3 hours ago, Jackal2100 said:

I'm sorry if I'm being difficult

As someone who didn't sign up for the tournament, reading about all of the 'glitches' makes me feel glad I didn't.  So no need to apologise in my opinion.

[MeatEtr]

3 hours ago, eniced73 said:

I am trying to fully understand the scoring system being used here.  I know an explanation is being worked on but figured someone smarter than me might have already figured it out.  I am seeing 10 or 11 scores that are all the same.  Were all these games surrenders, no shows, or something else?  I am guessing they are all the same scenario being all scores are exactly the same.  

 

 

2 hours ago, Heckkler said:

There has to be a bug as my opponent surrendered both games I saw the end screen in both of them and they received 1000 points and I received 1333.

Yeah guys theres scoring bugs in the surrender games. Its getting looked into. Not sure if it can be manually corrected or not. I lost a bunch of pts too. Bear in mind the CM tourney system is still a work in progress. Elvis will be around with details soon.

[eniced73]

I do not see any files in my CMRT game.  Does one player get both files to start and then the game commences?  My opponent is Sonicgun.  Anyone know him?

[MeatEtr]

6 hours ago, eniced73 said:

I do not see any files in my CMRT game.  Does one player get both files to start and then the game commences?  My opponent is Sonicgun.  Anyone know him?

Everybody gets one starting file. Whoever plays their file first now has the other player with both files.

Also never play any files in other save game areas, only the In-Progress section. The tourney system does not support save and finish later. 

[Andrew Kulin]

On 10/19/2023 at 3:54 PM, Andrew Kulin said:

I understand that the CM games have no means to provide accurate interim scoring (such as final game scoring type scores) to the Matrix server.  so as a workaround they award scores of 3-1 when there are casualties in a turn, with the person whose side gets "more" casualties against their opponent getting a 3, and the opponent gets a 1.  If no casualties at all in a turn then it is 0-0.  No idea what happens if a tie (e.g., 1 soldier per side is a casualty).  If it scores 1-1 or 0-0 or if infantry units also can score higher than one another (e.g., Regular BTN CO is KIA, vs green private KIA so BTN HQ is worth more points internally, therefore the other side wins that round 3-1).  If you look at the tournament scoring you will see all the low scoring game scores between opponents can be calculated by various combos of 3-1 and 1-3.  So for example in my CMCW match with gkersh I am currently down 10-14 in one game and up 22-10 in the other.  Meaning in first game I won two turns and lost four with all others being ties.  So scoring is 2 x (3-1) = (6-2) + 4 x (1-3) = (4-12) with overall total = (10-14).  In the other game I won seven turns and lost one.

This "3-1" scoring system does not factor into the final score (which is the BFC final scores you see on end game screen).  It is just for fun during the tournament as BFC Elvis told me.

You are therefore better to ceasefire as you will get whatever type of BFC score would show up on their final game screen when you ceasefire in game considering total points in most these matches are on order of 2,000 or so per scenario.  So maybe you get 334 points.  That would be better than 78 points that might be showing on screen with the 3-1 system.  And if you (both) don't ceasefire then the game never ends, and Matrix's server has no way of knowing what the "real" score is, so you are stuck with whatever just for fun (3-1 system) points that Matrix has on their system.

But if you cannot communicate with your oppo, and he is not returning turns or is not aware of this then I am afraid you are pooched.

Scoring System Update:

One of my games I was up 7-5 one turn, and on the next turn it was 9-7.  That does not fit the 3-1 scoring system.  When I played the turn, I saw that we each scored a single infantry casualty against each other.  So it was a tie, and it would seem a tie scores 2-2,  Both units were equal in value (soldier) and so I still don't know if one soldier was a major and the other was a private if that would result in a 3-1 score.

[Holien]

On 10/25/2023 at 8:23 PM, BFCElvis said:

I haven't forgotten you folks today. I've been working on getting easy to understand and explain descriptions of exactly what was done. The time zone difference didn't help with the back and forth conversations. As soon as get somefink worth passing on I will. It's a priority for me. 

Hi,

Just to add to your thought process those who get adjusted scores because the game did not get completed I think should get the same scores as those who had a no show.

They do the same in FOG2 unless the game is nearly completed, but as they can track points more easily in FOG2 that makes sense.

For CM it is all about the end position and I think it is fairer to folk that they get the same as the no shows...

Just my 2p....

Not that it will help me as after I guess a 10 year layoff of playing any CM game I am getting my arse handed to me in Barkmans corner...

My oppo has been excellent at sending turns and we have around 12 mins left....

Soo much to re learn....

[Holien]

Anyone else getting server errors @21:30 UK time? My oppo and I have been churning out the turns and we are down to 2 minutes on the last of the two games.... Just started to get error mssages?

[MeatEtr]

About 10 hrs ago the servers did seem extra slow but the turns finally did get sent.

[ALBY]

Both probus and I got our abrams. My recovery was like grand theft auto. What was left of the crew jumped in under fire and left the area at a high rate of speed. Made me watching the movie. Another spectacular moment was probus shooting a tree and obliterating an entire squad with splinters.  Never seen that before.  This is not CMBS with airburst munitions…. So I choked on my coffee watching them all die at once this morning.  We are both gettin after it. Fun times !!  This is why I enter the tournaments. 

[Jackal2100]

Was there a plan to do another nudge email for the second round? So far my Cold War opponent has been a no show.

[ratdeath]

Round 2 status: My CMRT opponent is a no show. The CMBN battle had like 2 turns and then my opponent stopped playing. The CMCW battle is heating up and I just lost my M1 *sobs*

I hope I get an active player for the third CMCW battle. Should be a new and interesting red vs red scenario.

[ALBY]

Wow.  2/3 or your tournament games are shot ?!  Terrible  

maybe next tournament slitherine can look at our history when assigning oppo.  Assign those that play regularly  against others who play regularly.  Maybe the starting ladder could/should reflect prior tournament play and the noobs have to work their way up into the group of reliable players. Ratdeath, I hope the games you do have going are fun and enjoyable.  
 

remember… winning a combat mission tournament and $4 will get you a latte at Starbucks…

the most important thing is to have fun. The tournaments get you games with some excellent players you would not otherwise get to PBEM and I love them for this reason.