PEB14 Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 Hello, One common practice of some experienced players is to split squades into teams whenever possible. One of the reasons why to do so, is that it avoids to get a whole squad rattled or broken by a single enemy shot. It makes perfect sense. Hence I've got a question related to game mechanics. When I have a rattled Team and an OK or nervous one, what is the morale status of the squad when they merge? With small teams like Scouts or AT teams, it looks like (based on my very short experience) the merged squad gets the status of the biggest of the teams. Is it a general rule? What about equally sized teams which get merged? And what if the squad is split once again? Do the new teams get the same morale than the previously reformed squad? Or is morale tracked on a soldier by soldier basis (which would make sense and would also avoid cheesy strategies...). Notice that the same question relates to Physical condition, but with much less important implications as Physical condition can always be recovered. Thanks in advance for your answers! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Fusselpulli Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 1 hour ago, PEB14 said: what is the morale status of the squad when they merge? This is just pure speculation, as I haven't tested it, but I suspect that the status will be that of the squad-leader who gets in charge of the team. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 11 minutes ago, Dr.Fusselpulli said: This is just pure speculation, as I haven't tested it, but I suspect that the status will be that of the squad-leader who gets in charge of the team. I found splitting and merging bring morale back to ok albeit often only temporarily. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 1 hour ago, PEB14 said: One of the reasons why to do so, is that it avoids to get a whole squad rattled or broken by a single enemy shot. It makes perfect sense. If a squad has three teams, you find that only one team has full contact with enemy units. You find that out by splitting the squad. Also one RPG shell can destroy the morale of the squad by inflicting more than 30% casualties. Try to move in formations by splitting and keep distance from each other but stay in visual contact. Yes experienced players rather split but it means a little more work. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brille Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 Can't confirm this for sure, so only speculation. I would say morale is tracked individually per soldier but only the average squad morale is displayed. So let's say roughly over 50-60% soldiers of the squad are pinned, so the ui shows the entire squad as pinned. You also see individual soldiers "cower" for a certain amount of time (if only low fire is taken), while the rest of the squad members keep a look out as normal. But it will show you maybe only "cautious" in the interface because only one or two soldiers are effected, the rest of the squad is still operational. I also had it that I split a rattled squad only to discover that the smaller team went directly to "shaken" but were not under fire at this moment or before. So splitting a squad to "conserve" morale for the other team might work but you also get enough penalties for it: lower situational awareness (especially if the team has no binocs or radio), lower firepower (obviously) and they break more easily under fire. And do t forget that morale will reach other teams of the squad /platoon, especially when casualties are taken. So a squad can get rattled or broken even when they didnt had that much front line action. Reports of their comrades getting slaughtered elsewhere sink through the comms sooner or later and, depending on their experience and morale, is not taking lightly by them. I split squads into teams mostly just so they don't get demolished by one he round of a tank, especially in the modern games. Other reasons are for scouting purpose, to get a lower profile (either with a half squad or two men) or anti tank teams. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 7 minutes ago, Brille said: Can't confirm this for sure, 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domfluff Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 The leadership factor for the team will be that of the team leader. The initial leadership value is what has been set as one of the units soft factors, and the other one is inherent to the team leader (or whomever is highest ranked and alive at that point). So, yes, splitting will tend to have between a zero and negative effect on morale. Does this mean you shouldn't split? Not really, the effect is usually minimal or unnoticeable. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PEB14 Posted February 17, 2023 Author Share Posted February 17, 2023 7 minutes ago, domfluff said: The leadership factor for the team will be that of the team leader. The initial leadership value is what has been set as one of the units soft factors, and the other one is inherent to the team leader (or whomever is highest ranked and alive at that point). So, yes, splitting will tend to have between a zero and negative effect on morale. Does this mean you shouldn't split? Not really, the effect is usually minimal or unnoticeable. Sorry, but I don't get your point. I mean, you're talking about the Leadership factor and I perfectly understand what you write about it, which makes perfect sense. But my question was aboute Morale, not Leadership. And I don't think that Morale is determined the Team or Squad leader's. Or is it? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domfluff Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 Morale in CM is a dependent variable, not an independent one. As an element takes suppression, this will tick up, and when the bar fills up the element will shift to the next morale state. Leadership, experience and motivation are the independent variables, and provide a buffer to this, as well as determining the rate these reduce. Thus, a higher leadership formation will tend to have better morale, and one with a worse leader will have worse morale. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 (edited) All factors are tracked for each individual soldier. What you see when you select a team or unit is the average value. In a "regular" infantry team, there might be guys who are veteran +1 and also guys who might be green -1. Same goes for the current morale state. Notice how sometimes when a team surrenders, three out of four guys will put their hands up while the last guy will keep firing. That's because that individual had a better morale state than his buddies. It's also noticeable with AT guns. You can often kill nearly the whole crew, but the last guy who mans the gun will refuse to leave it. He might just randomly happen to be a fanatic, even though his team was only rated as +0 motivation. Other times, even a "veteran" crew will bug out after a few close mortar hits. Edited February 17, 2023 by Bulletpoint 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combatintman Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 My morale always drops when I get a Teams call invite if that helps ... 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PEB14 Posted February 17, 2023 Author Share Posted February 17, 2023 1 hour ago, Combatintman said: My morale always drops when I get a Teams call invite if that helps ... You clearly lack Leadership! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 8 hours ago, PEB14 said: One common practice of some experienced players is to split squades into teams whenever possible. One of the reasons why to do so, is that it avoids to get a whole squad rattled or broken by a single enemy shot. It makes perfect sense. No. It's useful to split squads so that one can manually do assaults, one team assaulting while supported by other teams MG's. However... Casualties to one team or squad are felt/suffered by the whole platoon no matter how far away on the map they may be. Heavy casualties to a squad will cause all the other squads in the platoon to immediately get "cautious" or "mentally disturbed" whatever the term is these days no matter how far away they are on the map. Brille pointed this out but it was buried in the middle of his post. It's another of those CM2 weirdness/oddities/bugs that I listed elsewhere. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty's Mighty Moustache Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 1 hour ago, Erwin said: Heavy casualties to a squad will cause all the other squads in the platoon to immediately get "cautious" or "mentally disturbed" whatever the term is these days no matter how far away they are on the map. Brille pointed this out but it was buried in the middle of his post. It's another of those CM2 weirdness/oddities/bugs that I listed elsewhere. I had this in a recent PPBEM, I split off a zook team from a platoon and sent them ahead in a jeep to setup an ambush whilst the platoon mounted on trucks. The trucks got annihilated by a jadpanzer wiping the rest of the platoon and the zook team at the other end of their map immediately became panicked. Took me a while to work out why. MMM 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PEB14 Posted February 17, 2023 Author Share Posted February 17, 2023 1 hour ago, Erwin said: No. It's useful to split squads so that one can manually do assaults, one team assaulting while supported by other teams MG's. However... Casualties to one team or squad are felt/suffered by the whole platoon no matter how far away on the map they may be. Heavy casualties to a squad will cause all the other squads in the platoon to immediately get "cautious" or "mentally disturbed" whatever the term is these days no matter how far away they are on the map. Brille pointed this out but it was buried in the middle of his post. It's another of those CM2 weirdness/oddities/bugs that I listed elsewhere. Thank you for pointing it out. Especially as I completely forgot this aspect. At the first order, dividing a squad in teams has no positive effect on morale. But anyway, if you split your squad in teams and disperse theese somewhat (2 or 3 tiles from each other, not much more to avoid negative impact on C2), it forces your enemy to divide its fire in multiple directions/on multiple targets and should lessen the impact of his fire (direct casualties and suppression) on at least part of the squad. Espacially when targeted by HE weapons and machineguns. Correct? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted February 17, 2023 Share Posted February 17, 2023 Those are good reasons to split them, yes. The main reason is to have more (micromanaging) control. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 On 2/17/2023 at 4:54 AM, Brille said: Can't confirm this for sure, so only speculation. I would say morale is tracked individually per soldier but only the average squad morale is displayed. I can confirm that this is correct. On 2/17/2023 at 4:54 AM, Brille said: So let's say roughly over 50-60% soldiers of the squad are pinned, so the ui shows the entire squad as pinned. I'm not sure what the rules are but something like the above. I don't think I read it mentioned in this thread but the morale for all members of the platoon are effected when enough casualties are taken. You can even take a squad and send them 1km away out of commms and then watch thier morale drop as the rest of the platoon gets shredded. It's an abstraction / engine limitation. Normally a platoon would not be separated like that so they would notice thier mates getting hit. Just something to remember. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockinHarry Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 think it´s to do with the overall force morale that is used for the games strategic AI, determining when a force becomes more incapable for further fighting or achieving goals. Mainly an AIP thing I´d guess. It´s likely bits of complicated programming "local area" morale levels and then let the AIP make something of it. Less so for human players normally, but he´s affected by the overall force morale drop as well, but can deal with that better. Maybe game mode ( warrior, elite, iron etc) has an influence as well, IDK. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 15 minutes ago, RockinHarry said: Maybe game mode ( warrior, elite, iron etc) has an influence as well, IDK. There is no evidence, Veteran up to Iron the manual doesn't say anything how it influences Combat Shock and Combat stress. What plays a role are the Soft Factors and the C2. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockinHarry Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 2 hours ago, chuckdyke said: There is no evidence, Veteran up to Iron the manual doesn't say anything how it influences Combat Shock and Combat stress. What plays a role are the Soft Factors and the C2. Yup, what I´d said. Though what do we know about the games under the hood features that BFC never tell us about. I hate all these superfluous discussions just because BFC keeps up this totally unnecessary secrecy on many issues. But oh well.... It may be time to move on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 21 minutes ago, RockinHarry said: BFC keeps up this totally unnecessary secrecy on many issues. There maybe more about the code what meets the eye. Or there is just something plain random going on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 I've seen the leadership value change for the worse when splitting off a team. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 1 hour ago, Ted said: I've seen the leadership value change for the worse when splitting off a team. I have seen that combat shock recovers back to OK. There is no difference between OK and Cautious. Cautious means only two stages closer to Rattled, Nervous only one stage away they can break during an attack and become Rattled. Rattled can have serious consequences like running into a house with a squad of enemy submachine gunners b3ecause that is where the cover is. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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