German Heavy Machine Guns

[kb6583]

Playing "Hot Time in Hatten" as the Germans. I see I have been given several heavy machine guns, which when I click on them, seem to show the machine gun and a full crew and are shown as "semi-deployed". So as the game progresses I move several of them into two story buildings and click "deploy weapon".  After the game progresses for over five minutes I see these machine guns still as "semi-deployed" with "deploy weapon" still highlighted. Yet they all can fire. As usual with me, what am I missing?

[JoMac]

If you move MG Squad into a building, then use 'Face' Command, then use 'Deploy' (or is it the other way around) they will have a better chance of deploying...However, it will still take 2-4 minutes for them to finally Deploy their MG.

Also, once your MG Squad is finally deployed, it can also be moved to another window (using 'Face' Command) while retaining its deployed status.

If deploying MG Squad behind a Hedge/Wall it will usually deploy within 1-2 minutes (w/o necessarily needing a 'Face' Command).

Ofcourse, all of the above will depend on Moral/Suppression levels, etc.

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by JoMac

[chuckdyke]

1 hour ago, JoMac said:

If you move MG Squad into a building, then use 'Face' Command, then use 'Deploy' (or is it the other way around) they will have a better chance of deploying...However, it will still take 2-4 minutes for them to finally Deploy their MG.

Also, once your MG Squad is finally deployed, it can also be moved to another window (using 'Face' Command) while retaining its deployed status.

If deploying MG Squad behind a Hedge/Wall it will usually deploy within 1-2 minutes (w/o necessarily needing a 'Face' Command).

Ofcourse, all of the above will depend on Moral/Suppression levels, etc.

 

What is the point deploying inside a building playing as German? As US or CM it is obvious. Did anybody test this or a MG42 is more efficient inside building during urban combat?

Edited December 31, 2022 by chuckdyke

[domfluff]

2 hours ago, kb6583 said:

what am I missing?

A tripod mounted heavy machine gun is a complicated piece of machinery, that needs to be correctly sited to be effective. This is what the "deployed" state represents - it's not only on the tripod, but properly levelled and firmly positioned.

CM adds a time penalty to setting up machine guns inside buildings. This is supposed to abstract the difficulties of preparing the position - knocking out windows, moving furniture, creating a stable and raised base to fire from, etc.

Obviously it can still be a good idea to fire from buildings whilst deployed, but you need to allow for enough time to do it. The UI will show you this additional time. 

[Simcoe]

10 hours ago, JoMac said:

If you move MG Squad into a building, then use 'Face' Command, then use 'Deploy' (or is it the other way around) they will have a better chance of deploying...However, it will still take 2-4 minutes for them to finally Deploy their MG.

Also, once your MG Squad is finally deployed, it can also be moved to another window (using 'Face' Command) while retaining its deployed status.

If deploying MG Squad behind a Hedge/Wall it will usually deploy within 1-2 minutes (w/o necessarily needing a 'Face' Command).

Ofcourse, all of the above will depend on Moral/Suppression levels, etc.

 

Damn, I didn't k ow u could move a deployed machine gun to different windows without re deploying. Thanks for the heads up.

[domfluff]

Yeah, same thing for AT guns - you can move them in their deployed state, and the pack up/deploy times will be in seconds. The downside is that they'll move very slowly, but it's fine to do for small moves

[Brille]

Well it takes several minutes to deploy a heavy machine gun inside a house, as stated by the others here. But if it really takes up to 4 minutes constant deploying without them being somewhat otherwise occupied (taking cover from enemy fire) then this is not normal I guess. 

 

One problem I had in Shock force 2 is when I had a face command applied to an MG team. The gunner of the MG would, in rare cases, move around constantly around the gun, so the deploying phase would not start. 

If I then remove the face command again (sometimes even moving the entire MG to another position) it will work again. 

[Lethaface]

I have learned just to be patient and that works for me. I think I always give a face command because the facing is quite an important aspect of an MG position, but I haven't had MGs not deploying IIRC.

[Brille]

On 12/31/2022 at 10:27 PM, chuckdyke said:

What is the point deploying inside a building playing as German? As US or CM it is obvious. Did anybody test this or a MG42 is more efficient inside building during urban combat?

Well better overview I guess. Yes the germans have a tripod that you can set up on higher elevation but never the less a higher position may be favorable especially if the landscape is uneven. Apart from that a building gives you concealment and cover... At least if not setup in an old barn. 

[chuckdyke]

5 hours ago, Brille said:

Well better overview I guess. Yes the germans have a tripod that you can set up on higher elevation but never the less a higher position may be favorable especially if the landscape is uneven. Apart from that a building gives you concealment and cover... At least if not setup in an old barn. 

Tripods in my view for ranges over 500 meters. Once he fires he gives his position away. Better in bipod mode he gets out quicker, they are priority targets.

[Brille]

11 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Tripods in my view for ranges over 500 meters. Once he fires he gives his position away. Better in bipod mode he gets out quicker, they are priority targets.

I see your point there. In my opinion if it is not point blank range (like below 100m) you can benefit from a tripod. The MG is more accurate and gets out more bullets in theory (never tested, only from the feels). 

The biggest question would rather be if you have to turn the MG often to get to shoot at the enemy. 

If you need to then the bipod configuration is the way to go because you get on target quicker. 

 

Getting away faster if things are getting hairy is a valid point but the hmg should not be in the front lines in the first place. And even in urban areas you have some longer lanes you can cover in a narrow arc. Those are intended as point weapons after all. 

 

 

[chuckdyke]

38 minutes ago, Brille said:

I see your point there. In my opinion if it is not point blank range (like below 100m) you can benefit from a tripod. The MG is more accurate and gets out more bullets in theory (never tested, only from the feels). 

The biggest question would rather be if you have to turn the MG often to get to shoot at the enemy. 

If you need to then the bipod configuration is the way to go because you get on target quicker. 

 

Getting away faster if things are getting hairy is a valid point but the hmg should not be in the front lines in the first place. And even in urban areas you have some longer lanes you can cover in a narrow arc. Those are intended as point weapons after all. 

 

 

It is not modelled in the game but a tripod enables an MG to engage with indirect fire over longer distances. For normal infantry ranges I never noticed an iota of difference. I am not a tester just see it in play. Like the BMG.30 I let it shoot at tentative contacts with the tripod version. 

[RockinHarry]

I´use them long range (800m and up) only and if available for say main infantry combat range (300m) almost always doing target area fire. It´s more effective than point fire anyway. Did I mention that BFC modelling of german tripod HMG s*cks long time? Oops...couple of times it seems. Oh well... best situation for german heavies is said longer ranges (up to 1200 - 1500m) then apply target area fire on "mass target". Cross and flanking fires are particularly effective. Key here is deflection, or leading the moving target with that area fire. Depending on range that could be between 30 to 50m. I deal the opponent 2x3 times the hits and losses as compared to point fire targeting, no matter if the TacAI decides on target selection or self applied. Every other usage of german HMG is a complete wastage of these things IMO.

[chuckdyke]

5 hours ago, Brille said:

I see your point there. In my opinion if it is not point blank range (like below 100m) you can benefit from a tripod. The MG is more accurate and gets out more bullets in theory (never tested, only from the feels). 

The biggest question would rather be if you have to turn the MG often to get to shoot at the enemy. 

If you need to then the bipod configuration is the way to go because you get on target quicker. 

 

Getting away faster if things are getting hairy is a valid point but the hmg should not be in the front lines in the first place. And even in urban areas you have some longer lanes you can cover in a narrow arc. Those are intended as point weapons after all. 

 

 

In the game the Panzer grenadiers have two MG42's per section in the LMG role. They debus from their halftrack at short range. Less than ideal Imo the K98 just functions as ammo bearers. Soviet submachine gunners in urban settings have more fire power. The game reflects this once enemy infantry closes they are gone. Against US forces once the 60 mm mortars are in position they are gone. You need to keep your distance with this weapon and we don't have many maps over 2 km. Finding a good position for this weapon is hard. I do counter attack at Son. Semi dark and the Americans in foxholes just behind the crest of the dikes. The StuG 44s more practical afterall this weapon was the future. 

 

[Bulletpoint]

10 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

I´use them long range (800m and up) only and if available for say main infantry combat range (300m) almost always doing target area fire. It´s more effective than point fire anyway. Did I mention that BFC modelling of german tripod HMG s*cks long time? Oops...couple of times it seems. Oh well... best situation for german heavies is said longer ranges (up to 1200 - 1500m) then apply target area fire on "mass target". Cross and flanking fires are particularly effective. Key here is deflection, or leading the moving target with that area fire. Depending on range that could be between 30 to 50m. I deal the opponent 2x3 times the hits and losses as compared to point fire targeting, no matter if the TacAI decides on target selection or self applied. Every other usage of german HMG is a complete wastage of these things IMO.

I find the opposite - that they are no use at all at 1000m+, not even for suppression.

[Chibot Mk IX]

Here is another advantage to fire HMG simi-deploy in the building: 

When deployed the HMG can be destroyed by HE. So this could happen, Due to the strong protection from the building, a 37mm HE failed to kill anybody in the HMG team, but it knocked out the HMG......... 

 

On 12/31/2022 at 5:10 PM, domfluff said:

A tripod mounted heavy machine gun is a complicated piece of machinery, that needs to be correctly sited to be effective. This is what the "deployed" state represents - it's not only on the tripod, but properly levelled and firmly positioned.

CM adds a time penalty to setting up machine guns inside buildings. This is supposed to abstract the difficulties of preparing the position - knocking out windows, moving furniture, creating a stable and raised base to fire from, etc.

Obviously it can still be a good idea to fire from buildings whilst deployed, but you need to allow for enough time to do it. The UI will show you this additional time. 

The funny things is , in modern titles the ATGM don't take such penalty for setup in the buildings (AT-4, AT-7, AT-14 etc)

 

[Artkin]

On 12/31/2022 at 2:57 PM, kb6583 said:

Playing "Hot Time in Hatten" as the Germans. I see I have been given several heavy machine guns, which when I click on them, seem to show the machine gun and a full crew and are shown as "semi-deployed". So as the game progresses I move several of them into two story buildings and click "deploy weapon".  After the game progresses for over five minutes I see these machine guns still as "semi-deployed" with "deploy weapon" still highlighted. Yet they all can fire. As usual with me, what am I missing?

If you look on the left just above the HUD you have troop statuses for everyone in the selected team. Some guys may be spotting, firing, cowering, moving or deploying. If you click the deploy button then your team will eventually do it. However if they feel that it is necessary they will engage targets before deploying. This can be pretty frustrating behavior. To make sure they are ACTUALLY deploying then look at their statuses... one of them will say "Deploying".

If you really want them to deploy and **** off engaging targets, then set a tiny target arc which doesn't have enemies inside of it. Your team will disengage and will deploy. 

[MikeyD]

Playing CMRT as Russians recently I came up against  German HMG teams that my smg-carrying troop simply could not respond to. The benefit of the HMG tripod is you can outrage the enemy. Often the only thing that can reach out and touch a properly emplaced hmg is a sharpshoot/sniper. Playing a CM Western Europe map that's divided up 200m between tree lines, the tripod mount loses it advantage.

[Chibot Mk IX]

Yes, but the problem for German HMG in many CMRT scenarios are, the SMG squad are in a combine arms formation. Soviets have lots of T-34 and Su-76 to deal with German HMG team.

 

 

[Artkin]

1 hour ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

Yes, but the problem for German HMG in many CMRT scenarios are, the SMG squad are in a combine arms formation. Soviets have lots of T-34 and Su-76 to deal with German HMG team.

 

 

And this is why leaving German HMG teams (in particular) deployed in houses is often a bad idea. You will have 7 men disappear in one unexpected shot. 

[Lethaface]

3 minutes ago, Artkin said:

And this is why leaving German HMG teams (in particular) deployed in houses is often a bad idea. You will have 7 men disappear in one unexpected shot. 

All depends imo, good cover is usually preferable I'd say as it helps against mortars / artillery and generally all incoming. 

[Artkin]

30 minutes ago, Lethaface said:

All depends imo, good cover is usually preferable I'd say as it helps against mortars / artillery and generally all incoming. 

For sure. At the least I'll have my HMGs keyholed or in enfilading fire positions covering key areas of approach, usually positioned at the rear of my first echelon of defense. They are high priority for me. 

And that is before armor is added into the equation

[chuckdyke]

I let the MG42 in the heavy role fire at good tentative contacts. A good C2 is necessary to be effective, do the same with US and British MGs. The German MG42 is more versatile as it can fight when it is not yet deployed.

[Erwin]

Maybe I have been unlucky in the campaigns or scenarios I played, but one of the challenges is trying to find location where one can fire at a minimum 500-1,000+ meters range.  Below that range, the HMG's are very vulnerable to small arms return fire.  Most designers make scenarios hard by placing objectives just behind a slope on in a dip in the ground.  In those cases it forces the player to approach to less than 500 meters - sometimes a lot less.  So, in most of the missions one cannot use the long range of the HMG.  In those cases it seems almost impossible to avoid heavy HMG casualties... Am starting to think that in those frequent cases it's best just to leave the HMG's behind and not expose them at all.

The same challenge exists for FO's.  It seems that it is easy for designers to ensure there is no long range LOS.

[Lethaface]

Well it makes sense to defend using the terrain to your advantage and especially reverse slopes.