campaign How to survive early barrages? - Spoiling Attack?

[Ridaz]

I am playing the NTC campaign in Cold War and having a hard time figuring how do I survive the opening barrages on my units even before leaving the spawn point even if I leave the barrages and later on helicopter attacks seems relentless and my units will be combat ineffective to take the other objectives.

Of course if I were to play again I would place my units elsewhere knowing where the initial arty would land but realistically what can I can do to avoid or survive this in the future?

[Grey_Fox]

Don't put troops in obvious defensive points, or only put then the there once the artillery has lifted, just like the "race to the parapets" in WW1.

This is part of the terrain analysis cycle - when planning the defense, first look at it from the attackers' point of view.

Edited June 26, 2022 by Grey_Fox

[chuckdyke]

1 hour ago, Ridaz said:

how do I survive the opening barrages

For armor you have the survival onion. I find it applies for infantry units too. Do I have to be there? Can I be observed? Can I be targeted? Always, have a plan to leave the location fast. An AI trigger can be anywhere so you can be targeted anytime by artillery. A human player can be even more dangerous. Don't stay anywhere too long. 

[Ridaz]

1 minute ago, chuckdyke said:

For armor you have the survival onion. I find it applies for infantry units too. Do I have to be there? Can I be observed? Can I be targeted? Always, have a plan to leave the location fast. An AI trigger can be anywhere so you can be targeted anytime by artillery. A human player can be even more dangerous. Don't stay anywhere too long. 

Thanks for the advice but in the scenario as I was moving my troops to the nearest hill for cover but my troops already received shelling from their starting location and on the way to the location. 

it would be nice if there is an AAR or video covering this particular scenario and how it was tackled.

[Combatintman]

7 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

For armor you have the survival onion. I find it applies for infantry units too. Do I have to be there? Can I be observed? Can I be targeted? Always, have a plan to leave the location fast. An AI trigger can be anywhere so you can be targeted anytime by artillery. A human player can be even more dangerous. Don't stay anywhere too long. 

Artillery does not work with AI triggers.  There is a trick with on-map mortars where it is possible but the big stuff fires a set plan.

[chuckdyke]

2 minutes ago, Ridaz said:

it would be nice if there is an AAR or video covering this particular scenario and how it was tackled.

I have SF2, Red Thunder, Final Blitzkrieg, Normandy. So if it happens in one of these games Let me know which scenario. I find it a poor design if they have artillery on your preparation area. 

[Combatintman]

4 minutes ago, Ridaz said:

Thanks for the advice but in the scenario as I was moving my troops to the nearest hill for cover but my troops already received shelling from their starting location and on the way to the location. 

it would be nice if there is an AAR or video covering this particular scenario and how it was tackled.

Sometimes you just have to accept that people die in war - if the opening barrage is targeting your setup zone there isn't much you can do about it.  The mission was probably designed deliberately with that intent.

[womble]

I know nothing about the scenario, but it may be that there is no way to avoid the bombardment, and it's part of the "story" the scenario is trying to tell. There's no guarantee that you can finish every scenario without a scratch. If the scenario has been well playtested, to give a good assessment of the range of likely outcomes, the victory conditions might give some indication of the level of casualties the author intends, but given the nature of "branching" conditions in campaigns, it might be that you're "going to lose", and the degree of that loss will decide the future course you take through the campaign.

[chuckdyke]

2 minutes ago, Combatintman said:

Artillery does not work with AI triggers. 

Thank you, I must be the world's worst designer. I had something like that in Grand Boneface where the German artillery blast away at the beginning of the game. Since then I put troops away in shelter. 

[Ridaz]

Just now, chuckdyke said:

I have SF2, Red Thunder, Final Blitzkrieg, Normandy. So if it happens in one of these games Let me know which scenario. I find it a poor design if they have artillery on your preparation area. 

Ironically this is from CM Cold War NTC campaign meant for beginners.

You could see this in the first few minutes in the first mission if you choose Spoiling Attack.

Of course this is also common in quick missions which  does render the mode to be almost useless.

[IICptMillerII]

You might find giving this a read useful: 

 

[Rinaldi]

So the Hinds you're going to just have to deal with, which I know sounds like a crapshoot, but the arty only hits one key, obvious piece of terrain. Two things on that: unless you are rushing pell-mell as if it is a QB meeting engagement, that shouldn't catch you out. Secondly, the first lesson of the NTC is that the "open desert" is often anything but and you need to fight dirty. As for being hit in setup, that's simply not true. I even went back and unpacked the campaign to double-check the support targets, and there is only a single one for the OPFOR and it ain't in your setup, that's for certain. It's certainly near it, but get used to it: this happens in Cold War often. 

Without spoiling too much for those who haven't played, the Soviets are hitting the most obvious terrain, but far from the best terrain to fight form. You need to use the valleys and crags to set up flank and rear shots, and you definitely have the time to get there. 

Edited June 26, 2022 by Rinaldi

[Bil Hardenberger]

6 hours ago, Ridaz said:

Ironically this is from CM Cold War NTC campaign meant for beginners.

You could see this in the first few minutes in the first mission if you choose Spoiling Attack.

The Spoiling Attack is supposed to be a wake up call.. you are supposed to learn that rushing in to an uncertain situation can be costly.  The artillery in this scenario in particular is meant to canalize you into a certain path, where they can kill you better... if you ran into artillery right away then you drove into it... there is no artillery set to hit the blue player on the set up zone.

I hope you take this campaign for what its meant to teach: how to husband your force, conduct a proper recon, follow proper tactics, techniques and procedures (TTP), including use of terrain masking, and most of all respect the enemy.. they are very capable in the NTC campaign... oh, and recon! 

If you continue with the campaign, your situational awareness and ability to deal with the OPFOR should be dramatically improved... that will be fully tested in the final exam scenario at Red Pass.

Bil

[Simcoe]

9 hours ago, Ridaz said:

I am playing the NTC campaign in Cold War and having a hard time figuring how do I survive the opening barrages on my units even before leaving the spawn point even if I leave the barrages and later on helicopter attacks seems relentless and my units will be combat ineffective to take the other objectives.

Of course if I were to play again I would place my units elsewhere knowing where the initial arty would land but realistically what can I can do to avoid or survive this in the future?

The bets part of the NTC is it's so fast paced that you can iterate over and over again. I replayed the first scenario dozens of times trying to figure out the correct formula. It's a pain in the ass but will make you a much better player in the long run.

[Ridaz]

Thanks for all the replies. Correction, the arty begin on the open terrain few hundred metres after the set up zone in the beginning but after taking Obj 1 further arty will trigger on the obvious key terrain and the general set up location where my tanks and some reserves were still station which is my fault.

However the hinds keeps attacking my units on the set up zone mid to late game. Not sure if this is unit or location targeting.

Nonetheless, I’ll try the scenario again with what I’ve learnt. So far the only other YouTube video I found of this scenario used the other side of the eastern hill to fight from which was not so effective as well.

PS I am rewatching all of Hapless tutorial videos to freshen up my memory.

[Artkin]

16 hours ago, Ridaz said:

Of course this is also common in quick missions which  does render the mode to be almost useless.

Yeah I never saw this as a fun part of quick battles. Thats why I always set my artillery as 5 minute reinforcements in the editor. You can set artillery as 5 min reinforcement in QB's too

[chuckdyke]

The set-up zones shouldn't be targeted for the first fifteen minutes. Especially on the smaller maps. The way out could be in the future, that the player decides which available units enter the area of operations.

[Combatintman]

16 hours ago, Ridaz said:

Thanks for all the replies. Correction, the arty begin on the open terrain few hundred metres after the set up zone in the beginning but after taking Obj 1 further arty will trigger on the obvious key terrain and the general set up location where my tanks and some reserves were still station which is my fault.

However the hinds keeps attacking my units on the set up zone mid to late game. Not sure if this is unit or location targeting.

Nonetheless, I’ll try the scenario again with what I’ve learnt. So far the only other YouTube video I found of this scenario used the other side of the eastern hill to fight from which was not so effective as well.

PS I am rewatching all of Hapless tutorial videos to freshen up my memory.

Except as I have said, artillery does not trigger because the AI is incapable of using artillery with triggers.  The reason artillery 'triggers' on Objective 1 is because an enemy unit with the ability to call artillery has seen your units and decided to call artillery in on that area.

AI air and aviation assets behave pretty randomly.  If you ever play a scenario in Scenario Author mode, as soon as an air/aviation asset is called by an asset that can call in air or aviation, you will see a blue circle that covers the whole of the map indicating that or those assets will target anything on the map that the air or aviation asset can see.  In this case your setup location but, had those units not been there, they could equally have been targeted wherever you had moved them to.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Combatintman

[Grey_Fox]

18 hours ago, Artkin said:

Yeah I never saw this as a fun part of quick battles. Thats why I always set my artillery as 5 minute reinforcements in the editor. You can set artillery as 5 min reinforcement in QB's too

If you're talking about multiplayer, it's a matter of not playing with assholes and agreeing house rules prior to the start of the game.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Grey_Fox

[Artkin]

37 minutes ago, Grey_Fox said:

If you're talking about multiplayer, it's a matter of not playing with assholes and agreeing house rules prior to the start of the game.

No I wasn't but yeah I've played enough pbem to know when something's in poor taste like that.

The QB maps all have fire support plans like right next to your spawn. On the smaller maps (Which is most QB maps) these zones can be close enough to cause casualties on turn 1

[Ridaz]

7 hours ago, Combatintman said:

Except as I have said, artillery does not trigger because the AI is incapable of using artillery with triggers.  The reason artillery 'triggers' on Objective 1 is because an enemy unit with the ability to call artillery has seen your units and decided to call artillery in on that area.

AI air and aviation assets behave pretty randomly.  If you ever play a scenario in Scenario Author mode, as soon as an air/aviation asset is called by an asset that can call in air or aviation, you will see a blue circle that covers the whole of the map indicating that or those assets will target anything on the map that the air or aviation asset can see.  In this case your setup location but, had those units not been there, they could equally have been targeted wherever you had moved them to.

RIght, thanks for the clarification.  I may not be new to com bat mission but I am not that familiar with how arty by  the AI works. 

4 hours ago, Artkin said:

No I wasn't but yeah I've played enough pbem to know when something's in poor taste like that.

The QB maps all have fire support plans like right next to your spawn. On the smaller maps (Which is most QB maps) these zones can be close enough to cause casualties on turn 1

It's weird why don't Battlefront remove early arty in QB maps. Maybe settings a 15 minutes delay  by default would make QB much more playable. 

[Grey_Fox]

9 hours ago, Ridaz said:

It's weird why don't Battlefront remove early arty in QB maps. Maybe settings a 15 minutes delay  by default would make QB much more playable. 

Artillery barrages preceding an attack is normal. The problem you have is with the scripted AI plans.

[Ridaz]

4 hours ago, Grey_Fox said:

Artillery barrages preceding an attack is normal. The problem you have is with the scripted AI plans.

I know it's normal for but not to the point where it occurs with 100% certainty on preparation zone. I'll replay my mission in due time and try to be better with what I've learnt.

[Grey_Fox]

2 minutes ago, Ridaz said:

I know it's normal for but not to the point where it occurs with 100% certainty on preparation zone. I'll replay my mission in due time and try to be better with what I've learnt.

Yeah, those would be the crappy AI script created for the QB maps. You'd be better off sticking to scenarios tbf as at least those would have appropriate AI plans.

QB is only really useable for PBEMs, and the recent games use all the same maps and on the modern games (Black Sea and Cold War) they really are inappropriate.

Edited June 28, 2022 by Grey_Fox

[Ridaz]

7 minutes ago, Grey_Fox said:

Yeah, those would be the crappy AI script created for the QB maps. You'd be better off sticking to scenarios tbf as at least those would have appropriate AI plans.

QB is only really useable for PBEMs, and the recent games use all the same maps and on the modern games (Black Sea and Cold War) they really are inappropriate.

True but I am afraid we will run out of scenarios even community made ones  while QB has endless gameplay potential.