What would the fight for Berlin have looked like?

[Free Whisky]

The TOO in CMCW includes an "Infantry Batallion (BERLIN)". It's somewhat different - from this forum post I gather that the somewhat odd composition is due to peace treaties.

I'm in the process of setting up a QB with an opponent and we're looking into setting up a 'fight for Berlin' QB. Since playing a PBEM battle can take weeks, if not a month or two, I'd like to put in a bit of effort right at the start to make sure the scenario we play is somewhat in the realm of 'that could make sense, in a way'.

So I've been thinking about why and how a battle for Berlin would have been fought, but my ideas are layman's ideas at best. I can't really find much info other than what units were in Berlin and when. So I wonder what the good people here think about what the battle for Berlin would have looked like? My thinking is along these lines:

In the scenario where the Soviets are the agressor, I assume that they would have to neutralize the NATO forces in Berlin to not allow a sizable enemy contingent behind their front lines. If you're going to take Berlin, you'd have to do it right at the start of WW3 when you have the element of surprise. The goal of the NATO troops would be to just survive and hope to survive until the war in Western Europe is over. So taking ground is never a goal for NATO in Berlin; holding on to well defendable locations is. I imagine artillery support would be limited because who knows how long you have to make the stock piles last. After a few days of fighting (drawing on recent events here) you might even find a T62 or two with an American flag painted on it...

How would that translate into a CM QB? Probably by selecting terrain that is well defendable, but making it an 'assault scenario' to give the Soviets overwhelming numbers. In the thread linked earlier Combatintman pointed out that defending Berlin would be an NVA job. My opponent figures this means motorized/mechanized infantry and T62's. The deployment area for the Soviets would depend on what day since the invasion the battle is set - on the first day the deployment zone would likely just be one side, after a few days the Soviets could deploy on several sides/ access roads.

I'm interrested to know what others here think a battle for berlin scenario would look like. What role would the Berlin wall play, with its mined areas? What units to expect from the Soviet side (NATO side is the Berlin batallion...). What role would artillery play? Would it just be NVA? Why not just surround and bottle up NATO forces in West Berlin rather than going on a urban military expedition which is always incredibly costly for the attacker?

 

[domfluff]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Crisis_of_1961

In practice, probably like that.

I've seen attempts at doing scenarios in Berlin before, and most of them have been light infantry based - the NVA would have some T-72s, but you'd see more T-55s than anything. A typical Berlin scenario could convert the CMRT master map, and might be an isolated light infantry force with zero-to-no artillery, holding out against a heavy, mechanised Soviet force, that will struggle to bring its full weight to bear. That's likely to be the fundamental tone of the thing on a tactical level.

Edited May 4, 2022 by domfluff

[Free Whisky]

1 hour ago, domfluff said:

A typical Berlin scenario could convert the CMRT master map, and might be an isolated light infantry force with zero-to-no artillery, holding out against a heavy, mechanised Soviet force, that will struggle to bring it's full weight to bear. That's likely to be the fundamental tone of the thing on a tactical level.

Thanks! So what constitutes as light infantry in this case? Infantry without dragons, or infantry without IFV's? Or both .

How would the mechanised soviet force struggle to bring its full weight to bear? Would that have to do with the fact that tanks and IFV's don't do particularly well in cities? So yes, they do bring a lot of tanks, but those need constant infantry screens to protect them from short range AT?

[domfluff]

Yup, "light infantry" in this case mostly meaning "without vehicles", or at least without those being the core part of the force. The Berlin brigade (as well as the BAOR Berlin Infantry Brigade/"Berlin Field Force" in this time period), certainly had them, but they'd be performing a supporting role. I think the BAOR orbat was something like four infantry battalions to a single armoured squadron, or something similar to that. The armoured squadron was strengthened, I think, but that ratio still implies that it's a supporting asset.

Yeah, the difficulties that the Soviets would have had would have been the usual ones - the lack of low-level leadership and any real light infantry would mean that you'd have all the problems that they've had in any equivalent situation (e.g., Grozny). Tons of power, but not necessarily having the ability to use it.

[Megalon Jones]

The NVA got a bunch of T72's but I assumed they would be sent in the FRG alongside the invasion.  

2 hours ago, domfluff said:

and might be an isolated light infantry force with zero-to-no artillery, holding out against a heavy, mechanised Soviet force, that will struggle to bring it's full weight to bear.

That's the thing.  The Berlin Brigade was severely limited in heavy arty due to the treaties ending WW2.  Whoever plays NATO in our match is going to be absolutely wedded to the TOE of the Berlin Brigade found in the QMB.  No extra arty or airpower.

I'm going to figure out what tanks the US force should have as soon as I tie down an exact year.  M48's or M60's?

[benpark]

The level of devastation to the city would be far less than in 1945. Clearer routes of advance may help the Soviet side in the initial assault due to the lack of rubble and prepared roadblocks. I would imagine there would also be a greater reluctance to sustain civilian casualties by the NATO forces, so it may be that the defense is less a 1945-style, tenacious "urban island" fight for city blocks - but more brief holding actions by NATO forces. That may center around particularly suitable structures for defense other than apartment complexes (train stations/KaDeWe/Zoo) or industrial areas (to the north end of the city in the West).

Maybe there would be some pitched fights for the somewhat more open areas such as the Tiergarten and the outskirts (Teufelsberg and western park areas) as NATO forces in West Germany geared up for whatever was coming their way. There wouldn't be much chance of easily reinforcing the NATO Berlin garrisons, so I don't think this would have been too long of a fight if the Soviets attacked with overwhelming forces and intent.

Edited May 4, 2022 by benpark

[Artkin]

USA'S Berlin Brigade would have been stationed there, I have modeled it for interested people

This file contains the US Berlin Brigade. You can choose the map you want to play, then "import" the troops in the editor. add a Soviet force and you're good to go. 

I'm not sure what Soviet unit was stationed there or what it was compromised of. 

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6bmk1utvgm52kp8/MASTERTOE Berlin Brigade.btt?dl=0

Edited May 4, 2022 by Artkin

[Free Whisky]

42 minutes ago, Artkin said:

USA'S Berlin Brigade would have been stationed there, I have modelled it for people like you!

This file contains the US Berlin Brigade. You can choose the map you want to play, then "import" the troops in the editor. add a Soviet force and you're good to go. 

I'm not sure what Soviet unit was stationed there or what it was compromised of. 

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6bmk1utvgm52kp8/MASTERTOE Berlin Brigade.btt?dl=0

Thanks, found out how to load the units. This is great... So, is this the Berlin Batallion from the game, times three (2nd, 3rd, 4th bat), with added bridage assets? Such as artillery, I see, engineers, AAA... Or are there differences on the batallion level as well? I have to load in and out of the editor to see both so kind of hard to compare. And might I ask what your source is?

[Artkin]

13 minutes ago, Free Whisky said:

Thanks, found out how to load the units. This is great... So, is this the Berlin Batallion from the game, times three (2nd, 3rd, 4th bat), with added bridage assets? Such as artillery, I see, engineers, AAA... Or are there differences on the batallion level as well? I have to load in and out of the editor to see both so kind of hard to compare. And might I ask what your source is?

Yeah I used the Berlin Battalion and added some Brigade level assets.

I don't think I altered the battalion components, besides changing the tanks according to the year that they were probably there. There were M60A2's there up until 1979 I think. Something like that.

This was the source I used, it's probably not perfect. :

https://www.fireandfury.com/extra/ordersofbattle.shtml

(Cold War U.S. PDF format (2M) ZIP pptx (2.6M))

Edited May 4, 2022 by Artkin

[BeondTheGrave]

4 hours ago, Artkin said:

Yeah I used the Berlin Battalion and added some Brigade level assets.

I don't think I altered the battalion components, besides changing the tanks according to the year that they were probably there. There were M60A2's there up until 1979 I think. Something like that.

This was the source I used, it's probably not perfect. :

https://www.fireandfury.com/extra/ordersofbattle.shtml

(Cold War U.S. PDF format (2M) ZIP pptx (2.6M))

As I recall the Berlin Brigade only have 12 howitzers for the entire brigade as well, so very limited re support assets. 

[Artkin]

I think for this I included 9, it was a guess since I couldn't find the "Card" that signified the amount of howitzers in the PDF. There were 12 155mms?

[Pinetree]

Here's a link to a link to a document for the Berlin forces I made a few years ago for Berlin'85.

[sawomi]

Source: "NVA- Anspruch und Wirklichkeit", Klaus Neumann (Hrsg), Verlag Mittler & Sohn, 1996

[sawomi]

The map was created in 1990s according to the records and information of a former officer of the NVA and shows how Operation "Zentrum" (='Center') was planned in detail (from 1987 on).

Objective:

After NATO has carried out its aggression and crossed the GDR's state border, the "Berlin Grouping" makes a lightning advance to the Kaiserdamm Bridge. Paralyzing the "communication and political power centers" of West Berlin and blocking the barracks of the Allied protective powers. 
By the end of the day, West Berlin was to be divided and occupied.

The urban area of West Berlin was divided into two zones of action (Sector I +II).
The border between the sectors runs at: Konradshöhe, Hohenzollernkanal, Westhafenkanal, City highway ring between Freeway junction Charlottenburg and Freeway interchange Schönberg, Suburban railroad line between Papestraße and Lichtenrade.
Main push direction: From west -> Heerstraße. From soutwest -> the Avus ('Automobile traffic and training road'). From east -> Straße Unter den Linden and Straße des 17. Juni.

Implementation:

At night taking of Tegel and Tempelhof airports by I. Battaillon of Luftsturmregiment 40 "Willi Sänger" from Lehnin.

With the beginning of the attack blasting of about 60 "alleys" through the Berlin Wall.

Sector I:
- Leadership: 1. Mot.-Schützendivision [1. MSD] NVA (without Mot.-Schützenregiment 1). Command post in expanded basement facility in Stahnsdorf.
    - GDR Border Guard Grenzregiment 5, Grenzregiment 34, Grenzregiment 44 
    - Support through: Kampfgruppenbataillion Potsdam I + II + III + IV [KdA], Artillerieregiment 1 and one Sturmpionierbattailon from Pionierbrigade 2 of the Ministry of Defence
Panzerregiment 1 [of 1.MSD] advances from south over the Avus leading the main thrust of Sector I in the center of West-Berlin.
Mot.Schützenregiment 3 [of 1. MSD] advances on Heerstraße in destrict Spandau with Grenzregiment 5 on the left flank where most of the British facilities are located.
Grenzregiment 34 takes the district of Kladow with the British military airfield Gatow.
Grenzregiment 44 enters Wannsee district via Glienicker Bridge and Glienicker Lake (with assault boats).
Mot.Schützenregiment 2 [of 1. MSD] pushes forward in secondary direction till Freeway interchange Schönberg and takes "communication and political power centers" in district Schönberg south of the city highway.

Sector II:
- Leadership: Grenzkommando MITTE of GDR Border Guards without Grenzregimenter 34 and 44. Command post in Berlin-Rummelsburg.
    - 6. independent Mot.Schützenbrigade GSSD
    - Mot.-Schützenregiment 1 of 1. MSD
    - 18. Volkspolizeibereitschaft [Barracks People's Police units of the GDR Ministry of the Interior]
    - Support through: Artilleriebrigade 40 NVA and one Sturmpionierbattaillon from Pionierbrigade 2 of GDR Ministry of National Defense
Grenzregiment 38 and Grenzregiment 40 enter West-Berlin district Reinickendorf and advance with Mot.-Schützenregiment 1 of 1. MSD from Pankow in direction Tegel airport.
6. independent Mot.Schützenbrigade of Soviet Forces arrives from Straße Unter den Linden and brakes through the Berlin Wall on both sides of Brandenburg Gate and leads the main trust in Sector II on the Straße des 17. Juni with 18. Volkspolizeibereitschaft on right flank and Grenzregiment 33 on the left.
In the south-east advance of Grenzregiments 35 + 39 + 42 in direction Tempelhof airport 

As soon as possible meeting of all East German and Soviet forces on the Kaiserdamm Bridge near the Sender Freies Berlin (public radio and television service for West Berlin).

Edited May 7, 2022 by sawomi

[Free Whisky]

On 5/8/2022 at 1:12 AM, sawomi said:

The map was created in 1990s according to the records and information of a former officer of the NVA and shows how Operation "Zentrum" (='Center') was planned in detail (from 1987 on).

This a very detailed answer to the question what the battle would have looked like .

Also interresting about it is that the assumption of the Soviets was that NATO would be the agressor. In that scenario taking over West Berlin does make a lot of sense, while I'm not sure it would if the Soviets were to invade Europe. Then they could just "siege" West Belin, I suppose.

Very interresting read, thanks!

[domfluff]

In all of the Soviet warplans that we know of, NATO was the aggressor. They still all involve the Soviets rolling over Europe (so going on the offensive), but the stated cause was always external pressures.

Whether that's purely for political reasons is another question - to steal the Falklands as something easy to work with, I'm not sure the leadership would appreciate a scenario which ran: "owing to your mismanagement of economic policy, your rule has become unpopular, so you're looking for a quick win to shore up the credibility of your regime". 

Point being that regardless of the real reasons why Soviet forces could rumble through Europe, the end result would look pretty similar, I think.

[Artkin]

On 5/5/2022 at 12:15 AM, Pinetree said:

Here's a link to a link to a document for the Berlin forces I made a few years ago for Berlin'85.

That document and the sources provided for it are excellent.

[Pinetree]

4 hours ago, Artkin said:

That document and the sources provided for it are excellent.

Thanks.   I have to update it at some stage as there was a book released about the US Special Forces in Berlin recently.

[Combatintman]

7 hours ago, Pinetree said:

Thanks.   I have to update it at some stage as there was a book released about the US Special Forces in Berlin recently.

I differ on some of the nuances regarding the UK structure but you're pretty close to the mark.  For instance the jury seems to be out on whether the armoured squadron had that many tanks.  If aligned with RAC structures between 1977 and 1981 then it should have that many but post that date the squadron should be 15-strong.  The stuff I've looked at sees a couple of sources saying that the armoured squadron just kept the extra ones after the TO&E change which in the case of Berlin is vaguely plausible mainly because the infantry battalions there had unique 'TO&Es that are poorly documented so outliers shouldn't be ruled out.  I also wouldn't place too much value in the RMP units in the city.

[sawomi]

On 5/10/2022 at 3:00 PM, Free Whisky said:

This a very detailed answer to the question what the battle would have looked like .

Also interresting about it is that the assumption of the Soviets was that NATO would be the agressor.

You have to understand that after May 1987 Warsaw Pact officially changed it's whole military doctrine to purely defensive - not only in 'intent' - but also in strategic operational implementation. That means no more 'defensive through attack'.

Conventional World War 3 would have been fought on GDR-territory from this point on.

So, no 'Fulda Gap 88', 'North German Plain 89' or 'Danube Valley 90' pseudo-'historical' scenario after May 1987!  (if we believe historical records.)

That means any computer game with a 'Cold War 1989 Warsaw Pact attack on Western Europe' setting is just pure fantasy. It's NOT 'pseudo-historical'. Its -Just.Pure.Fantasy.

Like 'Nazi Wehrmacht 1946' or the like.

Only if NATO had attacked GDR, 'Operation Zentrum' would have been executed.

Of course, there where plans before that by Warsaw Pact to occupy West Berlin, but about those we have not the 'exact' details that we have about 'Operation Zentrum', as far as I know.

But, then again, these pre 1987-plans would have been not THAT much different, of course.

So the 'data' we have about Operation Zentrum can be used more or less also for pre-1987 West Berlin scenarios. At least in the 'broad strokes'.

Edited May 28, 2022 by sawomi

[JM Stuff]

On 5/4/2022 at 7:43 PM, Artkin said:

Yeah I used the Berlin Battalion and added some Brigade level assets.

I don't think I altered the battalion components, besides changing the tanks according to the year that they were probably there. There were M60A2's there up until 1979 I think. Something like that.

This was the source I used, it's probably not perfect. :

https://www.fireandfury.com/extra/ordersofbattle.shtml

(Cold War U.S. PDF format (2M) ZIP pptx (2.6M))

Very nice detailled infos, thanks to post it.

JM

[MikeyD]

Unit composition and deployment aside, I expect the battle of West Berlin would resemble Mariupol. Massed Russia artillery hitting residential centers to maximize the suffering, hitting tall buildings to dissuade their use by spotters, basically doing everything in their power to get the city to knuckle under without having to go in door-to-door. Then, probably, having to go in door-to-door anyway to take the rubbled city that they had created.